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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I have one or two questions. We have only a minute or two left. As I mentioned, there is a debate in the Dáil this afternoon regarding issues concerning wards of court. Mr. Breen is familiar with that. We asked him on a previous occasion how much of the payments, approximately, that the SCA makes each year are to the Courts Service. A sum of €347 million was paid out. Was...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but I am asking if Mr. Breen recalls that off of the top of his head because there is a debate in the House in an hour. I would be grateful if he could refresh the figure in my head before I go into the Chamber. Was it over 50%?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I do not need an exact figure now but it was substantial.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: That was all I wanted to know. We are aware of that. I have two other questions. The last time Mr. Breen was here he also told us that the section 38 organisations have come within the remit of the SCA in the last year. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Breen send us a list of agencies and organisations with which the SCA deals? I am referring to a client list or whatever the correct term might be.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Breen to send that on in due course. It does not have to be done now. The second thing concerns the general claims of €820 million. Can that be broken down by client list or would that be difficult? I know the SCA has such a list.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is fine. As I stated, I do not want to do anything that would compromise the SCA's defence. I will just state that it would be interesting to know if perhaps there is an agency that attracted something like 100 claims. Other agencies might have fewer claims. Perhaps there might be a mechanism to group them, if there is a way to provide that information without compromising a defence.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Breen and the SCA can liaise with the secretariat. I ask him to give us some reply. He heard me earlier; I do not want to compromise the State's position by over-exposing what is being provided at this stage. Mr. Breen will understand my position. I have some final points. I am interested in a figure regarding the settlements made by the SCA last year. I would like the figure...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: What scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: In respect of the specific cases.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Has that been the pattern to over-estimate the provision each year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Is there a buffer in this €3.15 billion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The job of this committee is to be satisfied that the SCA's provisioning is reasonable. The only way to verify that is by comparing the provision made to the costs of the cases settled. I accept that in some years that could be very much over or under, depending on the number of high cost cases that might come in a year. I ask Mr. Breen to give us the figures for the last five years. If...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: No, I want the figure that the SCA had booked in the provision. I am referring to the figure that is now €3.15 billion. It was something like €2.6 billion or €2.8 billion last year. The SCA will have 10,000 cases, or whatever, with a value for each. How often are the cases valued? Is it once a year or is a monthly rolling system? How is it done?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: In other words, some cases could be valued three or four times over its history.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Breen send us a note on that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask that because if we only see figures once a year we assume that they are only looked at once a year. It would give us a greater understanding to know that there is an ongoing review.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask Mr. Breen to send us a note on that issue. I understand but not all of the committee members are here. It would also be beneficial to put that on the record from the point of view of the SCA because this is such a major area for us. I have one last question on a different topic for Mr. O'Kelly. I forgot to ask him about it this morning. He can send us a note. It is in respect of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Kelly might explain to us the market transactions undertaken. There are other funds called the carbon fund for Europe, CFE, and the bio-carbon fund, BioCF. I do not know what those mean. Mr. O'Kelly might send us a note on that. I know that the NTMA has been in the market for some of that recently. I ask that a note be provided on the role of the NTMA in this regard. I know it...

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