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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The taxpayer did.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The NTMA is our agent. It lost that money on our behalf. I should have specified that I meant the taxpayer lost the money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is a directed fund from the Minister. We understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: We will not get into the politics of blaming the Minister for that one.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes, it is a long-standing direction so it might go back a number of years or cover various Ministers. That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: When was the sale of the AIB shares? Was that the previous year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The fall in value had nothing to do with the disposal of those shares.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: On page 27, there is what looks like a simple chart with small figures but there is a lot behind it. Is it correct that €4.7 billion was invested in Bank of Ireland, the State has already received €4.2 billion in return and the value of the investment at the end of the year was €700 million? That would indicate that in respect of the €4.7 billion the State...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: When it comes to Bank of Ireland, of the €4.7 billion invested in it, the taxpayer has received €4.2 billion back to date in cash terms and the shares are worth €700 million, even at the reduced value. That means there is a €200 million surplus on the State's cash injection into Bank of Ireland to date.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The State is in surplus as a result of the Bank of Ireland bailout.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will move on to Allied Irish Banks in which the State invested €16 billion. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The value of the shares at the end of 2018 was €7.1 billion and we have received €6.1 billion in the meantime. That amounts to €13.2 billion, which indicates we are down about €2.2 billion on that investment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: When we come to that I will let the Comptroller and Auditor General in. We all know the big black hole was caused primarily by the IBRC, that is, Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to flesh out the figures for the other banks. The black hole is concentrated within those two banks: IBRC which includes Irish Nationwide Building Society and Anglo...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: It had to finance it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: As we all know, the ultimate value of the shares when they are sold could be up or down. On the payments that had to be made under the bank guarantee, what does "cash received" consist of?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Yes, Bank of Ireland-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The banks were paying a significant fee to the State during the period of the bank guarantee. Has it been factored in in the figures?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: It was significant in its own right.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018
(4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: It will come back by way of a dividend. I am handing over to Deputy O'Connell, although I have a few more questions to ask, but it is not fair of me to take up too much time. On page 7 of the NTMA's financial statement it is indicated that we owe €205 billion, while the interest paid on the national debt last year was €5.8 billion. On average, a figure of 2.8% was paid on...

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