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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: No, you told the review that Mr. Fraser confirmed to you that he told the Taoiseach's chief of staff Ms Deirdre Gillane.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Did that happen?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I was here at the committee. I know what he said. I was not there when Mr. Fraser was talking to you about Ms Deirdre Gillane and that is what I want to find out. Did Martin Fraser tell you that he informed Deirdre Gillane of the secondment? How did that conversation go? What were the details?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Even if he said it to this committee that was well after the fact. At that point in time you would not have had any inkling that Deirdre Gillane, or indeed the Government, was aware of the details of this.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you accept what Deirdre Gillane has said in-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you accept in full what Deirdre Gillane has said to the review?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you accept in full what Martin Fraser has told the review committee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I will leave it at that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Perhaps my hearing is bad. Will you answer it again?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It does not mention the Health Research Board. It does not mention the source of the funding.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I only need ten minutes if you want to wrap it up now. It is up to you.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I just have a couple of questions for the Secretary General. The report talks about the motivation here. I am not questioning the motivation of any individual here. I am questioning the processes and how a large amount of money was allocated without authority in my view. The author of this report is not here. There is what I would say is quite stinging criticism from you about the author...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I will make the point and you can clarify then. In response to questioning here, you suggested that there were no footnotes, no details in terms of-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----the protocols. I thought it was a very glib-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: You suggested-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: You were very-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Regarding Ms Quinn, you are saying "What protocols?" When she says there are defined processes and protocols in relation to the distribution of research funding, as Secretary General of the Department of Health, you are not aware of these processes or protocols. Is that your contention?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: You might clarify this for me because I have always wondered. As Secretary General of the Department, the responses to parliamentary questions end up on your desk before they are published. Is that correct? You answered a parliamentary question in the past about the processes and protocols for health funding. You answered a parliamentary question from my colleague, Deputy Cullinane, which...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is it not the case that that answer is no longer accurate? It should say, "never predetermined other than in the case of what we tried to do with Tony Holohan where we ring-fenced his salary, his expenses and his professional fees in relation to that."

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