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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It is in black and white.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: But-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The letter states that "[t]he annual allocation will provide Trinity College Dublin with funds". Is there another Trinity College Dublin to which this money was going? You signed this letter. You said you were committing this funding.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That understanding was that at least part of the allocation of €2 million to Trinity College Dublin would be used for that purpose.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It would be funnelled through the Health Research Board.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you have the authority to dictate to the Health Research Board how funding allocated to it will be used or is it not the case, as the board pointed out, that it allocates funding through a competitive process?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Am I right in saying that Trinity College did not apply for this competition and Dr. Holohan did not apply for this competition, but you actually committed that this money would be linked to Dr. Holohan's secondment and that Trinity College Dublin would at least have a portion of this €2 million?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It is about more than his salary. The question is whether you have the authority to dictate to the Health Research Board how funding that is allocated to it is dispensed. Is the answer not "No"?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you have the authority to do that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you have the authority?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you have the authority to dictate to the Health Research Board how its money is spent and to whom it goes? You do not have that authority. Can you not just accept that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: You are not the Minister for Health and the latter did not even know of this letter when you signed and sent it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: However, your letter had no approval either from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Minister for Health or the Government at the time you committed this funding. Is that a fact?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you accept Maura Quinn's view that the Chief Medical Officer "should not have been exclusively personally involved in the negotiation of potential University Partners nor should any possible research funding have been linked to the possible secondment to a university"?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. You characterise this as a situation whereby if somebody wants to leave the public service, it is appropriate for him or her to talk to a university and say he or she is thinking of going there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is your characterisation of it. However, that did not happen in this case. Tony Holohan wrote up the letter of intent. Tony Holohan negotiated with the university, and with you, the conditions in regard to his secondment. Is that normal practice for such negotiations? Ms Quinn's finding is that such persons should not be personally involved in the negotiation of personal university...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you believe it is appropriate for somebody who is looking for a secondment away from a Department to negotiate with the receiving body and the Department on his or her terms and conditions and the salary and funding that would be paid from the Exchequer and would go along with the secondment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There was €2 million of funding involved. Tony Holohan wrote the letter setting out that there was €2 million of research funding to go along with his secondment. That was an enhanced package.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It was linked to the package-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Engagement with Secretary General of the Department of Health (19 Apr 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Exactly, and there was therefore a benefit for him in being able to take up a position. It was part of the overall package. Do you believe it is appropriate that somebody should be able to do that? The findings are that it is not appropriate. Do you reject recommendation No. 7 in the report?

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