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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Would the Department have had a decision-making role in those meetings?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: I thank Mr. Moran.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Is the 11% in the six months plus?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: I understand that we will have targets shortly, which I welcome. Mr. Moran may comment on that in a moment. I know that Governor Honohan has commented on it and has asked if we should be setting specific targets. I am concerned about one group, however. There are a lot of people in this country who did not get mortgages from banks, but from mortgage companies. We all know the names, they...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: I do not particularly mind which bank.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Can Mr. Moran send us a note on the amount in the category of mortgage companies, as distinct from banks?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: I do not need data that breaches commercial confidentiality, but it is an interesting one. Was the liquidation of IBRC a quid pro quo for a deal on the promissory notes? We liquidated IBRC, but as the Secretary General of the Department of Finance and given Mr. Moran's understanding of the moves in Europe, was the liquidation an essential part of receiving a deal on the promissory notes?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Okay, then we will do both.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: So let me try it a different way. In Mr. Moran's view, would it have been possible to receive the deal we got without the liquidation of IBRC?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: It is useful to put that out there because it is obviously an issue. This committee has discussed - including at Mr. Moran's first appearance here - a lot about the issue of those who audit our banks. From 2006 to 2009, Irish Nationwide was audited by KPMG. From 2006 to 2011, AIB was also audited by KPMG. KPMG is now the special liquidator for IBRC, which encompasses Irish Nationwide....

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Ms Nolan said that a number were absolutely conflicted.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: So one was ruled out as being the special liquidator if IBRC was involved in legal action?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Or if one was currently auditing IBRC.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: What is the fee for KPMG acting as the special liquidator?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: There has been a lot of talk about IBRC staff being transferred to NAMA. Do we have an estimation of how many staff will be required?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: What was the process in deciding to transfer loans and assets to NAMA? Was some sort of impact study done? What was the decision-making process in deciding to transfer to NAMA?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: I take that point and believe the influx of new people to a Department or to any walk of life to be a good thing, but I suppose this is the reverse. In the current climate in particular - these are not normal times and it is the difference between one's peacetime unit and the wartime we face in terms of the financial crisis - I refer to people working in a highly sensitive area, which...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: To be clear, I do not question the integrity of anyone in this regard.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Yes, but what I want to know is that if I worked in the banking unit today, could I leave the banking unit and go to work tomorrow in a commercial bank that is State-owned?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Simon Harris: Is that different from the position of those who work in the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA?

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