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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Are we talking about a week or two?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Dr. McKenna has provided a useful segue into the next question, which many people have been asking since the Minister made his statement last night. If there are approximately 3,000 women known to have been diagnosed with cervical cancer, why has the national screening service only been engaging in audits on less than 1,500 of those? Why were the other 1,500 not under the remit of CervicalCheck?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: In light of what has happened over recent days, does Dr. Coffey think, with the benefit of hindsight, it is a major oversight on the part of CervicalCheck not to have proactively engaged with the full population diagnosed?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: With regard to the helpline, I want to read out a post that went up today on social media, but there are many throughout the country. The writer states that as a young woman she is second guessing the accuracy of her results as, she assumes, are most women at this point. Regarding the HSE number, which is the 1,800 number, she states the line is impossible to get through to and those lucky...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Thousands of women throughout Ireland are scared and they cannot get through to anybody. They need to talk to somebody. Dr. Coffey has listed the various steps. The question I am asking is when can women in Ireland expect to pick up the phone, dial that number and talk to someone with whom they can have an initial conversation about the circumstances.,

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I am up next, I am willing to swap time with Deputy O'Reilly. If she would like to keep going on this issue I am happy to cede my time and I will go after Deputy O'Reilly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: At the heart of this issue is non-disclosure. I have the HSE’s non-disclosure policy document here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I beg Mr. O’Brien's pardon.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: The open disclosure policy. I thank Mr. O'Brien. I would like to read out what the HSE defines as open disclosure, which is at the heart of all of this.An open, consistent approach to communicating with service users when things go wrong in healthcare. This includes expressing regret for what has happened, keeping the service user informed, providing feedback on investigations and the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Okay, perhaps Dr. Henry was trying to answer the question but I did not hear an answer. My question is that Dr. Henry was made aware of a very serious breach of open disclosure, it would appear that when he was made aware, actions were not taken to ensure that the women were informed. Why?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Given the national public anger and fear, did it not occur to Dr. Henry that the matter warranted escalation to Mr. O'Brien?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: We now know that no action occurred. We know that three in four women were not told. We know that there were open disputes, which Dr. Henry was brought into, between a clinician and the service. Dr. Henry has just stated to the committee that as far as he is concerned he initiated the process, took the appropriate action, and was led to believe that things were happening. Does he, bearing...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Is the witness saying that of course he believes he was mislead?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: Mr. Gleeson stated earlier that a decision was never taken not to disclose, specifically-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: -----in the case of Vicky Phelan and the others.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I want to challenge that statement for several reasons. We have a circular from CervicalCheck, saying to doctors that in instances where the woman is still alive they should use their judgement, and that in instances where the woman is deceased it should be noted on the file. We also have a letter from Dr. Hickey, Vicky Phelan's consultant, to CervicalCheck, addressed to Dr. Gráinne...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: We will move on.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: We have documentary evidence showing that the active advice from CervicalCheck was to tell just three in ten patients, and I do not need a response, but my view is that that represents a decision not to disclose. Turning to Mr. O'Brien, in 2013 the open disclosure policy came into effect. In 2014 there was an audit. In 2015 a decision was taken to share the results with the women; two...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I thank the witness. How did so many people in the HSE, including clinicians and managers, stay quiet in what clearly was an egregious breach of open disclosure?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: National Cervical Screening Programme: Department of Health, HSE, CervicalCheck and the National Cancer Control Programme (2 May 2018)

Stephen Donnelly: I thank the witness.

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