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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: That is good news. In terms of the €35 million, is Ms McGuinness confident that the HSE will not encounter the same difficulties this year that it did last year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Could it encounter them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Putting that on the record is important. The issue of agency staff was mentioned. Can we have the figures? The information that we have been given may be different to that provided to Mr. Barry O'Brien. According to the information that is available to me, the agency costs were 10% higher this January at €18.9 million than they were in the previous January and 6% higher than the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: What was the average monthly agency cost last year? How does it compare to this year's average?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: What has been the average in the first quarter of this year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: In the budgetary reduction set out in the HSE's service plan for last year, there was to be a reduction in agency costs of approximately €100 million, but this was not achieved.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: This year's service plan alludes to a reduction in agency staffing, but it does not set any target. Is this correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: I am sorry to interrupt, but I understand the logic of Mr. Barry O'Brien's point. The HSE is being told to reduce its numbers and, therefore, it must take on agency staff. However, there is an issue of credibility. The 2012 service plan did not reach its target. This year's service plan alludes to a reduction but does not set a target. Has the issue been included just to make a reference...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: That is a fair point. We referenced another issue with agency staff in our March report on the HSE, namely, the number of retired and former HSE employees who are back working in the health service as agency staff. We have pursued this issue with a number of Departments. For example, the Department of Education and Skills can tell us that there is only this or that percentage of such...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Is the HSE considering being able to? It was a recommendation of our report. It seems logical. Everyone has a PPS number. Many medical graduates, for example, nurses, are leaving college and trying to get employment. If staff have taken incentivised leave from the public service and are returning as agency staff, they are receiving public sector pensions and public sector wages...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: May I make a suggestion? The witnesses may not be in a position to answer today. A matter was mentioned in our report but has not been included in their briefing note on the recommendations arising from that report. We recommended that, when signing a contract with agencies, the HSE ask them to include people's PPS numbers, thus enabling the HSE to carry out its policy. This is an...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. To return to one of the first questions asked, to be sure I am absolutely clear, as of today or as close to today as possible, the current budgetary position of the HSE is that it is approximately €18 million below budget overall.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: That seems to be a very welcome turnaround from what we saw in January when the HSE was approximately €12 million over budget. I ask Mr. O'Brien to reassure me that the €25 million capital underspend is not just lagging behind and that we will not see an advancement. Is it a timing issue which is presenting the figures in a better light?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: The €25 million will be spent.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Therefore, the HSE is approximately €7 million in debt.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: To return to an issue which shook my faith and that of many Oireachtas Members and the public in the health Estimates process last year, the Oireachtas voted through a ring-fenced €35 million for mental health services which was effectively pinched and allocated to other areas of the health service. Will Mr. O'Brien explain how this occurred? How can the Oireachtas specifically pass...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: It was used in mental health services.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: The witnesses have seen the same media reports as I have, I am sure. There is huge scepticism about the veracity of this statement, while not disputing it. Will Mr. O'Brien expand on what the €35 million ring-fenced for mental health services was used last year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Health Service Executive
Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2011
(25 Apr 2013)

Simon Harris: Would it be helpful to circulate the list?

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