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Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Were they Dr. McLoughlin's predecessors?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: There might not be, but I find it utterly unacceptable that at the time the Department felt it was appropriate to use hard earned taxpayers' money to continue to send people abroad on study trips. There is no point in answering a question or an accusation that is not being levelled. I am not accusing anybody in the Department or the HSE of maladministration, but I need to know, as does the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I am reassured about the current position by the comments of Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien, but this is a retrospective committee. We are mandated to look backwards and examine the Comptroller and Auditor General's work. As an example, I refer to the trip to Georgia between 13 and 20 March 2008. I am dealing with abbreviations, but to the best of my understanding, there were six people on...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I thank Dr. McLoughlin and Mr. O'Brien for being here. While I accept the honesty of their statements to this committee, it is regrettable, and perhaps unavoidable because they were not in situ, that they are not able to answer the questions and get down to the nitty gritty as this committee and the Irish public want. To concur with Deputy Nolan, I cannot accept, nor can people watching...

An Bille um an Dara Leasú is Tríocha ar an mBunreacht (Deireadh a Chur le Seanad Éireann) 2013: Second Stage (Resumed) - Thirty-second Amendment of the Constitution (Abolition of Seanad Éireann) Bill 2013: Second Stage (Resumed) (20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Deputy Healy referred to what he believed were the Government's broken commitments. That is ironic, given that the legislation before the House was a commitment by the Taoiseach in his capacity as leader of Fine Gael before the last general election and by him, the Tánaiste and the Fine Gael and Labour parties in the programme for Government. The commitment was to hold a referendum. ...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. My understanding is that his office identified a sample of 56 individuals who had received payments and with whom it wished to speak in order to complete its work. Our colleagues in SIPTU have indicated that 40 people contacted them, but only 11 got back to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. Will Mr. McCarthy confirm...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Can Mr. McCarthy quantify the information deficit or gap this created in his investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Did one of those 11 transactions involve the payment of a college grant?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Paragraph 3.14 of the report mentions a payment amounting to €6,900.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Is Mr. McCarthy satisfied that of the 11 recipients who got back to his office, the payments made to them were in line with the aims and objectives of the scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Thank you, Mr. McCarthy. It seems that the more we look into this matter, the greater the information deficit that emerges. My remaining questions are for the Health Service Executive and the Department of Health. I also thank Mr. O'Flynn for his assistance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I do not wish to labour the point but can Mr. McCarthy elaborate on the specified purposes for which the cumulate amount of €264,000 was paid?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Thank you, Mr. McCarthy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I accept that. He would have taken some or many of the trips, perhaps, outside of work or on annual leave. As for the trips he took during work time, Mr. O'Flynn would have presumed he was attending as a SIPTU official, with senior officials from the Department of Health, to engage in some form of research.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I refer to the other signatory on the account. The second signatory was a Mr. Jack Kelly, who was a non-executive member of the national executive of SIPTU. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Again, he would have travelled abroad on a number of occasions. He was a member of SIPTU's national executive. I presume, that like a member of any national executive board or club, there were no conversations with other members of the national executive. Was Mr. Kelly not sharing his information with the national executive?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: It would have been a very serious offence - if that is the right word - or internal matter, for a member of the national executive - albeit also a HSE employee - to be signing cheques inferring that it was a SIPTU account which it clearly was not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: If I am sitting on the other side of the table in this and I am the HSE or the Department of Health, and I see that cheques are being signed by a pretty senior official in SIPTU who works directly in negotiations in this area and also by a member of the national executive of SIPTU, one can see how the impression would have been created for people and the presumption that this money was going...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I can assure Mr. O'Flynn that they have serious questions to answer when they come before the committee. I refer to the fund administered by Mr. Merrigan who carried out or commissioned his own Grant Thornton report. He commissioned it to forensically review the transactions of the account. It is referred to in paragraph 1.27 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Mr. Merrigan...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Did Mr. Merrigan himself pay for this report?

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