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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yes. That is the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I am reluctant to interrupt Professor Whelan but I have an amount of questions to get through. As a new health care group, a decision was made to have one individual take on the two roles. I think that is a statement of fact.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: At any point, was the Department of Health or, subsequently, the HSE consulted in regard to that situation? I would really appreciate an answer to that aspect.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I know Professor Whelan is trying to be helpful but I just need him or somebody else to answer that question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Let me give some examples of why I believe and I think the HSE believes - it is possibly why the Minister for Health made the comments he made earlier - there is the potential for conflict of interest in the current situation in St. Vincent's. These are not personal remarks but are about the structures which have been put in place. I want to give two examples. The first is the situation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: What probably irritated us more was that the hospital provided the information when everyone else in the sector, including cases where the income came from private sources, had released information. Does Professor Whelan acknowledge that it was regrettable he did not provide the information sooner?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: It was regrettable from our end. We have read the correspondence from our meeting on 20 December from Professor Whelan, Mr. Jermyn and the director of finance to the HSE and this committee on the view that the hospital group was compliant with public sector pay policy. Mr. Jermyn's letter to the committee quoted the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: We will get to the perspective of the HSE on this in a few moments. Let us talk about the seven individuals concerned. Mr. Jermyn is one of them, along with Mr. Maloney, Ms Duff and Mr. Meagher, and we do not know the identities of the other three staff members. Can Mr. Jermyn provide us with more information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: That is Mr. Meagher.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I accept that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: We will talk about Mr. Jermyn in a moment. With respect, the question was who the other three staff members were and what they do.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Is Mr. Jermyn of the view that, of the seven - and Mr. Meagher is on secondment so we can park that for the moment - there is Mr. Jermyn and two others and that he has completed or almost completed regularising the pay of the other three staff members? Is the HSE happy with that, that the situation of three other staff members at St. Vincent's Healthcare Group is regularised or is about to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: People want to know where the top-ups are coming from. We have clearly stated that they are not coming from charity sources, which we accept. We will get onto corporate governance later. Can the witnesses explain where the top-up of €136,591 in the case of the privately funded salary of Mr. Jermyn and his car allowance, the privately funded salary of €32,544 for the director...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: What does Mr. Menton mean by resources?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Is it the same for Mr. Maloney and Ms Duff?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Understandably and legitimately, there has been much talk about levels of remuneration and we can now talk about Mr. Jermyn's situation. There are also broader issues, which I want to focus on. Mr. Jermyn is the CEO of St Vincent's University Hospital.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Since when?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I thank Professor Whelan and his colleagues for being here. I also thank the HSE representatives for remaining with us. At the outset I want to make three points that predicate my remarks. None of this exchange today and none of the work of the Committee of Public Accounts - I think I can speak collectively on that - in any way seeks to undermine or devalue the excellent service being...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: In respect of the fact he did not know about the hand taking out €700,000 from the charity account to give to Mr. Kiely. Mr. Conlan seems sketchy at best on the details of how Mr. Kiely was to be replaced, the issue of Central Remedial Clinic Medical Devices Limited and top-ups. Did Mr. Conlan fail in his duties as a director? By the way, I do not believe he was alone in failing in...

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