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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Finally-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I hope Professor Whelan does not mind me moving on because we are a little short of time and I have a number of other questions I wish to put to the witnesses. With the indulgence of the committee, I wish to refer quickly to the issue of consultants and their contracts, which is another example of the perceived conflict of interest. This goes back as far as 2011 when, according to an...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I understand that. I am trying to establish how long Mr. Jermyn was in the university hospital before the group was set up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Mr. Jermyn was the CEO of the public hospital from April 1994 and paid through the health service at the time.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: When was the health care group set up?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Mr. Jermyn has been the only group chief executive of the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: To bring it back to basics, Mr. Jermyn is paid by the public service to run a public hospital. My only interest and that of the Committee of Public Accounts is what he is doing in regard to taxpayers' money and protecting taxpayers' interests. Mr. Jermyn might cast light on this but presumably being chief executive of a university hospital is a full-time job.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Mr. Jermyn hit my question on the head when he said that an element of his job was the university hospital and another element of his job was the private side of the group. That is my problem in a nutshell, namely, that an element of his job is now running a public hospital, or the public element of the hospital. I do not wish to put words in Mr. O'Brien's mouth but when I had an exchange...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: That is not even under discussion. I will put the question another way. The Minister for Health said at a committee today, in regard to Mr. Jermyn's situation, that there is only one hospital in the country where the CEO is both the CEO of a public and a private hospital. I believe that to be a conflict of interest and to be unsustainable. Does Mr. Jermyn believe it to be a conflict of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Will he explain the process?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I thank Professor Whelan.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yes. That is the question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I am reluctant to interrupt Professor Whelan but I have an amount of questions to get through. As a new health care group, a decision was made to have one individual take on the two roles. I think that is a statement of fact.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: At any point, was the Department of Health or, subsequently, the HSE consulted in regard to that situation? I would really appreciate an answer to that aspect.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: I know Professor Whelan is trying to be helpful but I just need him or somebody else to answer that question.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: Let me give some examples of why I believe and I think the HSE believes - it is possibly why the Minister for Health made the comments he made earlier - there is the potential for conflict of interest in the current situation in St. Vincent's. These are not personal remarks but are about the structures which have been put in place. I want to give two examples. The first is the situation...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: What probably irritated us more was that the hospital provided the information when everyone else in the sector, including cases where the income came from private sources, had released information. Does Professor Whelan acknowledge that it was regrettable he did not provide the information sooner?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: It was regrettable from our end. We have read the correspondence from our meeting on 20 December from Professor Whelan, Mr. Jermyn and the director of finance to the HSE and this committee on the view that the hospital group was compliant with public sector pay policy. Mr. Jermyn's letter to the committee quoted the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Simon Harris: We will get to the perspective of the HSE on this in a few moments. Let us talk about the seven individuals concerned. Mr. Jermyn is one of them, along with Mr. Maloney, Ms Duff and Mr. Meagher, and we do not know the identities of the other three staff members. Can Mr. Jermyn provide us with more information?

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