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Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: When is it expected to be concluded?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: As Mr. O'Brien is not used to sitting on the sidelines and being on the periphery of these meetings, I will ask him a question to bring him in from the cold. We would not want him to think we had forgotten him. I heard his exchanges with my colleagues. Where, exactly, are we going with this review of the section 39 organisations? I understand where we are going with the section 38...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: In the view of the Department, the four recommendations in the report ceased to be relevant because a decision had been taken to wind down the scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: The Department then took a policy decision to wind down the scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: Shall I continue while Mr. Purcell is doing that?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: In her presentation, Ms Kerins made much of the good work done by Rehab and the National Learning Network, as did Ms Kelly and Ms Keane. Let us take that as read. We have all seen it and I have certainly seen it in my constituency. We have met with service users so let us decouple that issue as we have had to decouple the issue when St. Vincent's hospital and other organisations have been...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I note Mr. Brian Kerr's statement in respect of senior managers. He has said that he would publish the salaries by 2015, which would mean the public could see them by 2016. Ms Kerins has indicated today that she would like that to happen this year. Can she outline how many senior managers we are talking about? Who falls into this bracket of senior manager?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: Ms Kerins has given the impression that there is a process under way or that Rehab is beginning to look at ways of publishing them. What does that process involve? Has Ms Kerins begun consultation with her senior colleagues or has the board begun consultation with senior managers?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I am happy to hear that because my reaction when I read the Rehab Group's statement was "one step forward, two steps backwards". It is basically saying that it will tell us the chief executive's salary and then tell us what everyone else is earning in a couple of years time. I do not think that is in anybody's interest, including that of Ms Kerins's colleagues and the service users of the...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I welcome that move forward in terms of the date. Does Rehab receive public funding from other governments or states?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: As we go about setting up a charity regulator, is there a requirement in other countries in which Rehab has operations to disclose salaries?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: What would happen in respect of Rehab's senior managers in the UK?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I want to get Ms Kerins's thoughts on the public-private mix. In her opening statement, she referred to the Rehab model. I think she used the word "unique". Again, there are other organisations, some of which we have met, about which I have concerns regarding how one separates and puts protections in place for the public or charity element versus the private or commercial element. What...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I thank Ms Kerins and her team, as well as the various officials, for being here. I am a little confused about the paper trail with the charities lotteries fund. We know the internal audit was carried out in June 2012. Did Mr. Purcell and the Department then send the internal audit to Ms Kerins or to Rehab?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: The committee has a letter sent to it by the Department from Ms Kerins to Mr. Walter Johnston, head of internal audit, on 23 August. Was that Rehab’s response upon receipt of the audit?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: The audit was completed in June and Rehab responded on 23 August. I am a little confused because the committee wrote to Mr. Purcell on 24 January 2014 requesting information on the funding stream from the Department to Rehab, as we had written to SOLAS and the Health Service Executive. We received a letter from Mr. Purcell on 30 January 2014 in which it stated: In respect of the audit...

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: Is it a fair assertion that Rehab never dealt with the recommendations, or is it the case that it wrote to the Department requesting a meeting? What is it?

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I have read the audit report. However, I am somewhat confused about the paper trail.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I really do not want to revisit that issue because that is a row for another day. I am wondering why Mr. Purcell wrote to the committee telling us the audit could not be concluded because Rehab did not respond to the Department.

Public Accounts Committee: Payments to Section 39 Companies: Discussion (27 Feb 2014)

Simon Harris: I want it to be noted, Chairman, that I made comments at previous committee meetings, as did other members, on the basis that I had been given the clear impression from the correspondence I had received from Mr. Purcell that he was not able to complete the audit process because the implication was that Rehab was not responding to recommendations. An earlier letter states Rehab wants to help...

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