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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Who initiated the discussion?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: In fairness, it probably was him. It would be unusual for Mr. Fraser to initiate a discussion with the CMO about his future work plans. Is it fair to say that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Of course.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Fair enough. That is fine.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: There are secondments in the public sector and within the Civil Service. Is it regarded as unusual for a senior civil or public servant to move through a secondment to an academic job in a third level institution? Has Mr. Fraser encountered that before?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: That is where somebody moves to an academic post in a third level institution.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Okay. I will now bring you to February 2021. Mr. Watt states the initial discussions went quiet because of the growth of the pandemic in late 2020 and in February 2021 there were further discussions with the CMO about this. Is that Mr. Fraser's recollection?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: I beg your pardon. It is 2021 and February 2022. Mr. Fraser is absolutely correct. Is he aware of who contacted Trinity College or how Trinity College became involved with this discussion?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Is it something that was organised within the Department of Health? Mr. Fraser has not been involved in discussions with Trinity College. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: When we look at this as a finance committee, we wonder why it is that maybe other third level institutions within the State were not given the opportunity to host a chair of public health strategy and leadership. Looking back, would it have been preferable if other third level institutions within the State had been given the opportunity to bid for this important and prestigious chair?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: I know Mr. Fraser had no involvement but I am asking the question in general and from his perspective as Secretary General.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Okay. I am not asking Mr. Fraser to talk about other people.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: I do not understand that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: No, I am not trying to criticise other people. I am simply raising the question when the State was going to fund a prestigious chair of public health strategy and leadership of whether it would have been better for that option to have been open to other third level institutions, or that third level institutions could have expressed an interest in hosting that chair.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: What was Mr. Fraser's understanding of the funding arrangements for this secondment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: What was Mr. Fraser's understanding of it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: One of the matters of interest to this committee is that third level institutions are funded significantly but not exclusively by the State. Trinity is certainly not funded exclusively by the State. Was any request made to Trinity to see if it would part-fund the chair? If not, is it something that should have been considered?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Everyone in this room, and I think the vast majority of people in the country, have great respect for Dr. Holohan and the work he has done. The following does not have to be interpreted as a criticism. Looking at the details of this proposal, it seems this was a job or secondment being designed for one individual. Does Mr. Fraser agree on that point?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: Dr. Holohan is unquestionably very qualified for the post. Does Mr. Fraser think it might be better for the post of chair to be established and for other individuals to be able to apply for it as a result of a public advertisement? If Dr. Holohan got it, nobody would question his credentials or suitability.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Proposed Appointment to University Research Post: Department of the Taoiseach (27 Apr 2022)

Jim O'Callaghan: I will raise a broader point but it is an issue of public policy. When civil servants reach a position at the top of a Department, they traditionally stay there until retirement. I know Mr. Fraser's circumstances and the question is not about him. Is there a position in the country now where we must look to see what to do with very high-level and qualified civil servants if there are only...

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