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Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I have some questions regarding the timeline. The new date, released this week, is October 2024 for substantial completion. That is what we are being told. I would take substantial completion to mean completion of the building and substantial fit-out. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: You said in answer to questions earlier that if you have 100% performance, it is doable to comply with that-----

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Achieving it is doable but it would require 100%. Has there ever been 100% performance in terms of progress on the development of the hospital in the past six years?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Would I be correct in saying there were months when the performance was in the mid-30s, at 33% or 34%? Would that be correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Over the next 13 or 14 months, it would need to be 100% every month to get to the target.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Yes. Hallowe'en next year, and then we are looking at the commissioning. Ms Hardiman has outlined a lot of that and she referred to nine months as the expected timeframe for that. Six months would be a high bar to set. Would that be correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Therefore, we are looking at a scenario where it will be August 2025 at the earliest before the doors would be open to accept patients.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: If you operate at 65%, which has been the average, then we are possibly looking at beyond Christmas of 2025. If you operate at 65% in terms of progress, then we could be looking at January 2026.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Given that it is nine months for the commissioning and given the fact that there has never been progress over a three-month period of 100% or anything near it, with the average coming in at 64%, then we are looking at a scenario of possibly January 2026 for actually opening and accepting patients. Is that a possibility?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I understand, as I have said previously, that everything is easy until one goes to do it. I understand that. Even a small job can turn out to be more difficult and I understand that. However, I want to put a couple of points to Mr. Gunning. Hindsight is great, of course, but would he agree that the location presented a lot of challenges? I do not expect him to say, because he cannot,...

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I watched one day for about 15 minutes. I watched trucks going in and out when the excavation was going on and I could see the difficulties even then. Would Mr. Gunning agree that it does present challenges? No matter where you go, there will be challenges. If you went down to a green field site beside the M50-----

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: Yes, but especially in that particular location, and the design, which could be described as a wow or vanity project from an architectural point of view, is complex. It is probably not the easiest building to build. Would that be correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I know it did.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I have seen the most awful buildings getting planning permission, as has everybody in this room and everybody watching these proceedings. The design is both complex and challenging. Would Mr. Gunning agree with that?

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I am questioning Mr. Gunning, as project manager, at this point. In terms of the contract, PwC produced a report and recommendations, which I read yesterday. PwC said that the type of contract that was used presented risks. If we were doing it all again-----

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: We will have Mr. Gunning's response first and then I will let you in, Mr. Tierney.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: PwC had a good deal to say about the way the contract was structured.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: I know that. I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: Children’s Health Ireland and National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Discussion (19 Oct 2023)

Brian Stanley: The site is challenging though.

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