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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I will finish on this point. I do not believe that defence stacks up. I understand the industry does not want the cost placed on the banks. However, there is an automatic reimbursement when it comes to the largest volume of fraud. If Ms Davenport genuinely believed what she said, she would say we should stop all that as well. There is nothing to prevent investigation even if there is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Just briefly, I want to raise the issue of instant payments and non-instant payments in the State. We are very low in relation to instant payments compared to other European countries, which are up at 90% and so on. The issue here is that the new directive that is coming from Europe will require us to identify the individual to whom the money is being transferred, but that will only apply...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: All credit transfers.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: When does Ms Davenport believe that will be operational?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It will be approved by the end of the year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: So, it will be another two and a half years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: On the issue of progressing the European directive, a number of countries have taken steps to confirm payee in the past, such as Britain and the Netherlands. Instant payments in the Netherlands are up at 99.5%. If people are transferring money, the bank will ensure that the IBAN directs to whatever store it should be, such as Homestore and More, as opposed to somebody who has set up an...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: So there is no appetite to move quicker than they are mandated to at a European level.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Ms Davenport mentioned that the initial step in the fraud is usually online. We talked about social media operators taking paid advertisement. We have some of those advertisements for investment scams, which the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland has been alerting the public to recently. Regarding those types of investment scams, does the Central Bank have a role in authorising...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: What about the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission? The problem is that there is no liability here. These forums can take the paid advertisement and not have to worry whether it is a scam or not. If a newspaper or the Yellow Pages advertised an investment scam that was fraudulent, surely there would be some comeback for that business or entity? There is no culpability or...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That comes to my last question. It was interesting to hear what Ms Davenport said about the gardaí. The benefit of the module we are doing is that it will hopefully inform public awareness about some types of fraud. We have not even touched on the one which intercepts legitimate businesses paying invoices. There are major issues where fraudulent entities are pretending to be a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: They would. I ask because I know a family member who was involved in a fraudulent scam. When that person phoned the bank, the bank said there was no need to tell the gardaí because it tells the gardaí. Is that advice universal across the sector or not?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: When the Banking and Payments Federation of Ireland reports it, does it report, for example, that Pearse Doherty is the victim of an approved push payment scam and what his address is? Do the gardaí have the details? If I do not report it myself but have phoned the bank to say €5,000 or €500 is missing from the bank, and the bank has then reported it, do the gardaí...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is that per year?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is that the year to date?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There would be roughly 200,000 transactions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I commend the banks on doing that. We will have the gardaí here. Could the witnesses supply the committee with anonymised detail of what they would provide in a report to the gardaí?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: We talked about authorised and unauthorised push payments. I refer to a case that where somebody hijacks or gains access to someone's account through a PIN and so on, then goes into it and makes the payment. We have broadly discussed authorised push payments in this committee where people have made payments themselves. They have been scammed but they have actually made the payments. There...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I said a family member was involved in this. When the family member contacted the bank, in fairness, the bank's reaction was to return the money because it was still in the account and it was noticed very quickly. Thankfully the bank operated very swiftly. The point was that the view of the bank was that, in some way, the person gave access to their bank account to a fraudster and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (24 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: In this case, what happened is that the fraudsters gained access to the banking online, go in and set themselves up as a beneficiary, wait for the period that allows for larger transactions, which is usually two days, and then transfer money to another account that they control.

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