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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am trying to figure this out. If someone is a victim of investment fraud, romance fraud or accommodation fraud, having bought a holiday that was fraudulent, and is out of pocket by €4,000 or €5,000, the bank will not reimburse that. If it is romance fraud, the amount could be €20,000. We have seen people putting €60,000 into fraudulent investments.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Significantly bigger. They are not getting that money back from the bank if the culprit has moved it on. The Garda receives approximately 1,000 reports per month or 10,000 to 12,000 per year. Is each of those cases investigated? Does An Garda knock on the victims' doors and question them? I am genuinely trying to figure this out. I know if I reported to An Garda Síochána...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Before we go there, it is important, therefore, and it is strong message, that the individuals come forward-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----but the bank comes forward to the Garda. When a bank notifies the Garda, does that trigger a Garda investigation into that individual having been defrauded.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: What happens in that context? Does the Garda call that person? Does it need that person to come forward themselves or is it able to trigger the investigation in any event? What does it do? Does it make contact with the individual?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that, because that is a focus on the money laundering and the money mule. I am focusing on the individual who has been robbed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: In all cases where the victim has been robbed as a result of fraud, is there an investigation when the Garda is notified by the banks, and are the victims in all cases contacted by the Garda? I ask because many people are victims of fraud online, have lost thousands of euro and have never been contacted by the Garda. That is my understanding.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Not all reports that the Garda receives of suspected section 19 violations are investigated to that level, however. It deciphers and determines that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: If that is the case, Mr. Cryan is saying every victim is contacted.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I know for a fact that they are not. I accept that there is a lot of this crime and the resources of the Garda are extremely stretched in respect of it, but I am trying to figure out where it stands. How many section 19 notifications were there in, say, 2022, how many victims did they relate to and how many victims were contacted or not contacted by the Garda during that period? Is it...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: How many of these 10,000 or 12,000 section 19 notifications per annum ended up in prosecutions in 2022?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Will the Garda provide statistics it has for the value of these types of crimes, such as romance fraud and so on? I am sure it knows the number of victims relate to them and the number of prosecutions that arise from them. Can that be provided to the committee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I thank Mr. Kelly. I will ask my remaining questions together. There have been investment scams where, as I said, people have ended up out of pocket by €60,000 or €70,000. Some of these investment scams are advertised on social media platforms. Are they ever prosecuted for their participation and for taking money from a scam? What learnings have there been from that? ...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is one thing we can give the Department. There are so many victims out there and the Department still does not have a strategy. Across the water, they are onto their second strategy. It does not take years to develop a strategy. Is there a new timeline for it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Sorry, the officials did not answer the question about the database.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I have a couple of things to ask for clarity on. We are doing a module on this. As we are stepping through it, we want to increase our understanding. We hope that if this is reported on or if people are looking in, it will show those who may be thinking of getting an easy couple of thousand euro for being a money mule that they will be apprehended, prosecuted and sentenced. It might also...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. In all cases where the bank has identified the fraud, it reports it to An Garda Síochána and there is no requirement on the individual to make a report or on An Garda Síochána to investigate.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: We have been talking about APP frauds. As An Garda Síochána does not categorise the figures in the same way that the BPFI does, obviously there are some issues in that regard. When Mr. Kelly presents the figures, we may be able to delve through them. When we spoke about APPs, we were looking at about 3,600 transactions in 2021. If we look at unauthorised payment fraud, according...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I will stop Mr. Kelly there. Obviously I do not operate behind the desk there and I am trying to figure this out. In terms of unauthorised payment fraud, there are about 300,000 incidents per year. These banks have to repay the individuals because that is the guarantee they have with their credit or debit cards. These are incidents of fraud. Surely under section 19 they would all be...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I take on board that we may be dealing with foreign banks and the fraud happened online so it is a matter for where they are domiciled. There may be issues in relation to that and, as Mr. Cryan said, numerous attempts regarding one person's card or account. Outside of that, even with those exceptions and even if the number was as small as 2,000, if they are frauds, they have to be paid...