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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Yes, please carry on with the section 19 reports which is the second level of report.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Can Mr. Kelly tell us how many were received in the past year?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is it thousands?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Can we go through that? Is the latest data for 2022?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Accommodation fraud is one of them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Perhaps Mr. Kelly could give those details to the committee. He does not know the number of victims, which is what I was looking for.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am trying to figure this out. If someone is a victim of investment fraud, romance fraud or accommodation fraud, having bought a holiday that was fraudulent, and is out of pocket by €4,000 or €5,000, the bank will not reimburse that. If it is romance fraud, the amount could be €20,000. We have seen people putting €60,000 into fraudulent investments.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Significantly bigger. They are not getting that money back from the bank if the culprit has moved it on. The Garda receives approximately 1,000 reports per month or 10,000 to 12,000 per year. Is each of those cases investigated? Does An Garda knock on the victims' doors and question them? I am genuinely trying to figure this out. I know if I reported to An Garda Síochána...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Before we go there, it is important, therefore, and it is strong message, that the individuals come forward-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----but the bank comes forward to the Garda. When a bank notifies the Garda, does that trigger a Garda investigation into that individual having been defrauded.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: What happens in that context? Does the Garda call that person? Does it need that person to come forward themselves or is it able to trigger the investigation in any event? What does it do? Does it make contact with the individual?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that, because that is a focus on the money laundering and the money mule. I am focusing on the individual who has been robbed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: In all cases where the victim has been robbed as a result of fraud, is there an investigation when the Garda is notified by the banks, and are the victims in all cases contacted by the Garda? I ask because many people are victims of fraud online, have lost thousands of euro and have never been contacted by the Garda. That is my understanding.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Not all reports that the Garda receives of suspected section 19 violations are investigated to that level, however. It deciphers and determines that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: If that is the case, Mr. Cryan is saying every victim is contacted.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I know for a fact that they are not. I accept that there is a lot of this crime and the resources of the Garda are extremely stretched in respect of it, but I am trying to figure out where it stands. How many section 19 notifications were there in, say, 2022, how many victims did they relate to and how many victims were contacted or not contacted by the Garda during that period? Is it...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: How many of these 10,000 or 12,000 section 19 notifications per annum ended up in prosecutions in 2022?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Will the Garda provide statistics it has for the value of these types of crimes, such as romance fraud and so on? I am sure it knows the number of victims relate to them and the number of prosecutions that arise from them. Can that be provided to the committee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I thank Mr. Kelly. I will ask my remaining questions together. There have been investment scams where, as I said, people have ended up out of pocket by €60,000 or €70,000. Some of these investment scams are advertised on social media platforms. Are they ever prosecuted for their participation and for taking money from a scam? What learnings have there been from that? ...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (31 May 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is one thing we can give the Department. There are so many victims out there and the Department still does not have a strategy. Across the water, they are onto their second strategy. It does not take years to develop a strategy. Is there a new timeline for it?