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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: I asked the Minister of State.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Would the Minister of State not have it investigated to determine whether it is a policy failure?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: I am not asking the Minister of State to do that. I am asking him to look at the overall policy. The Minister of State said he was the policymaker.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: In terms of making a policy, is there something wrong with this policy that has allowed this to happen without an intervention from the OGP? Does the Minister of State intend to change the policy? Is it for him to find out what went wrong with the existing policy and learn something from this? Have any of his officials made an effort to find out what happened and learn from the mistake?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: No, it is a matter for us here at this committee and I will not allow the Minister of State to dismiss it. This committee looks into reform as well and it is a matter for the committee to ensure the policymaker in this regard learns from this process and gathers the information to understand what happened to determine whether the Department will change the policy. There is no point in...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: I ask the Minister of State to give the committee an undertaking that his officials will engage with the HSE to see what happened, learn from this and influence further changes in policy. That is essentially the work of this committee.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Who is on the reform board? How is its membership made up?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Are any outsiders on that committee?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: The one is representative of what?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: There is one business person. How many insiders does it have?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Nine insiders and one outsider.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: With a further outsider being appointed, it will have two. The Department certainly would not be interested in having it the other way round, with nine outsiders and two insiders. The time has come for radical reform in this area. We have seen this particular purchase go south on the taxpayer. We see that this particular board is completely controlled by what I would call insiders. We...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Of course.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Perhaps we could have a session on procurement at another stage because it is an interesting topic. On the banks and the questions Deputy Tóibín has asked, again, Government thinking is stale on this and it is a continuation of the policy of the last Fine Gael Government, in my opinion. It is a protection for the pillar banks - the duopoly that is now in place. If we are really...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Deputy Durkan wants to come in. I will then come to the Minister.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: Does Deputy Tóibín want to come in again? He had his hand raised.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: I will move on to Deputy Doherty.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: The Deputy may put that question to the line Minister tomorrow. The Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, has made his views known on it and it is only fair that he would pursue it with the line Minister. We have half an hour left.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: He obviously does not want to. The line Minister will deal with it tomorrow and I ask the Deputy to take it up with him, as I have no doubt he will.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021
Vote 11 - Office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Chief Government Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Mar 2021)

John McGuinness: I would like to ask some questions. In terms of reform, are there plans to reform the Office of Comptroller and Auditor General to the extent that it might be amalgamated with the Local Government Audit Service, such that we would have one audit office for the country? The spend on local government does not get the same scrutiny as Departments and agencies. Given the amount of money that...

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