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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Thank you, Deputy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: We can look for that information across the various schemes. I have a scheme in my area, as I am sure everybody does in their area, that seems to be dragging out to eternity. It would be useful to see exactly what the timelines are and what the progress is on the various schemes. The Crossmolina scheme is of particular interest to the Deputy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: I want to revert to the issue of consultancy fees for a few minutes. One of the standout ones is Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, with a reported €2.1 million in consultancy fees, and then through freedom of information we read that it is actually €86.1 million. I want to raise this with Mr. Moloney in a helpful way. When one sees a heading like business-as-usual...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Who is coming up with the rules though?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: There is a huge overuse of it. As I said, I do not have any fix with regard to not bringing consultants or experts. It is appropriate at times. One has to do it, and I understand the logic of doing it. It is quite all right to do that. However, for minor projects, we are adding on. There is the issue of housing. I want to raise this directly with Mr. Moloney. We have a housing crisis...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: From today's meeting, will Mr. Moloney take this up with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: That is what I am asking. I have said it to the Minister, and I am saying it to Mr. Moloney. I have said it to the Secretary General of the Department, and I have said it to the previous Ministers. Local authorities built 1,666 homes last year. Four local authorities, including Kildare County Council, built none. If you are starting from scratch the whole time, there is a dead hand on...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: I call Deputy Colm Burke, who has eight minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Before the Deputy goes onto a different subject, I will ask him if there has been a judicial challenge in relation to the scheme he is referring to.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: As a follow-on from that, Mr. Moloney said that it is referred to external consultants. How many staff are in his Department?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Does the Department have staff for this? From watching these assessments that are referred to external consultants going back and forward, the Department will have a fair idea of what the issues are. The staff in the various offices in the Department will be aware of them. Are there staff there that have competence in terms of carrying out those assessments in-house? That would speed up...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: What kind?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: I accept that; I just wanted to get a picture of what is involved. That is helpful. In terms of when it is being handed over to outside consultants for the assessment work, Mr. Moloney can see from what has been said that it is arising throughout the country. Deputy Colm Burke has a particular problem, literally on his own doorstep. Has a timeline been put on it when the consultants will...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Why not?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Mr. Moloney knows what can happen if he hands something over to a consultant or a particular body to carry out work in respect of it and no timeline is put in place. I can think of situations where the management of one public body - not a local authority, but another public body - had to start asking for weekly reports from the consultants after two years in terms of the progress that was...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: As a result of what is happening, two issues arise. One is the delay and the risk of further flooding in the case of those projects and across a range of other projects. There is also the issue of construction inflation, which is on a steep curve upwards. This is impacting on the public purse. On other projects, it is actually the delays in having the work done that is giving rise to...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Mr. Moloney and the Minister are in control of this. If work is being given to outside consultants and those consultants have to reach certain milestones, it focuses minds. If any of us take on something and we do not put in place a target date to finish, it can go on forever and a day. It can be put off continually. What I am saying is that there are escalating costs, but also, perhaps,...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: There is the cost element as well. I ask that would be done. In terms of procurement, we have to take account of environmental issues when it comes to major public contracts. Has Mr. Moloney issued green procurement guidelines to all Departments in order that there will be a green element to procurement?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: One of the OGP's responsibilities is enabling green and social objectives. It is in the notes for today as well. This is important. Are social objectives put into those guidelines also?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer
2022 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 5: Vote Accounting and Budget Management
(16 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Is that being monitored to make sure it is being complied with in terms of workers' rights and environmental outcomes?

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