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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Before I ask about a more generalised point, with regard to Ryevale, if a section 5 declaration is not in place, the contract will not be renewed.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: When is that due for renewal in Ryevale House?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: My next question is for Ms McPhillips. I watched with great enthusiasm as the Departments were formed and the transfer of responsibility from what was a huge Department, and what an acronym it had with DCEDIY, to the Department of justice. Will Ms McPhillips capture what institutional knowledge would have been lost in that transfer, if any? Deputy Geoghegan touched on this but in terms of...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Everyone moved.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: There was €978 million in expenditure for accommodation with contractors in 2024. Apologies if I have missed this already but what is the expected expenditure in 2025?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Has any work been done on a feasibility study with the Department of public expenditure or internally in the Department to show this is the most cost-effective approach, never mind quality? Is this approach cost-effective in the long term with regard to the way in which we provide accommodation?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Is the Department receiving capital funding to match the policy stance on this? I assume it will require purchase and works. Is the funding matching the policy in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: That probably reduces the impressiveness of the financial feat if it is case by case, as opposed to a more structured approach.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: To purchase?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: I have one more very brief question before I finish. With regard to the conversation with Deputy Geoghegan on question marks about age verification, how many people are there whose age we cannot prove or the Department is unaware as to whether they are children or adults?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: How many?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: But Ms McPhillips says she regularly communicates with Tusla. Surely she has an idea of the scale of this potential problem. It is purported to be an issue.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: I would appreciate it if Ms McPhillips could follow up on this.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: How many contractors do not operate on serviced sites and do not have running water or wastewater treatment?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: How many contractors do not have planning permission?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Okay. Can Mr. Delaney forward details of how many have and do not have that, if that is possible?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: Please do so. I am concerned, and I think there is a general consensus in the room on this, about children potentially residing in an adult setting and, potentially, adults residing in a child setting. Ms McPhillips is rightly saying that this is one of the biggest priorities for the Department, but it is all Tusla's responsibility. For 2022, 2023 and 2024, how many examples or issues have...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: For 2022, 2023 and 2024, how many cases are we talking about where this had been identified?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: It is a big priority for the Department, and rightfully so. I am sure the question as to whether this is occurring has been asked at some point.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

Aidan Farrelly: For clarity, how many have been in the wrong type of accommodation and have come into the Department's service or vice versa gone to the children's service? That has to be captured somewhere.

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