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Written Answers — Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth: Youth Services (15 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: Statutory and operational responsibility for the delivery of child protection and welfare services is a matter for Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. The Deputy is seeking information in relation to an operational matter for Tusla. Consequently, I have referred the matter to Tusla, and requested that a direct response be provided to the Deputy.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank Senator Boyhan for his amendment and detailed contribution. I also thank the other Senators for their contributions. This Bill already provides for a review of the operation of the scheme, with an overall review under section 49 and an annual review under section 12. I am not in a position to accept these two amendments; however, I will bring forward my own amendments, related to...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Acting Chair. I signalled on Committee Stage that my officials were examining a complex issue in consultation with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Office of the Attorney General, with regard to the county home institutions included in this scheme, and that I intended to bring amendments to the Bill on Report Stage to address this issue. This is an issue that came...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: That is correct.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Senators for their contributions. I will try to address the key issues. Turning to the contribution made by Senator Ruane, I take the point regarding new information and the desire for information of this kind to be accurate. I fully accept what she is saying in this regard. Since the information has come to light about the complexity of the arrangements, especially at many of...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I take on board the Senator's point about "concluding year". In terms of the material supporting the outline of the scheme, we will bear that in mind. Regarding Senator Boyhan's comments, this scheme has at no point defined itself as being directed towards unmarried women. We were always clear about that. At no point has that been-----

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: It is fair to say that the vast majority were, but not everyone did. That was the point Senator Boyhan made. The scheme recognises his point and consciously never defines the mothers as relevant persons based on their marital status. This is something we did deliberately.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: It was never a question of marital status, as we recognise that there were some married women who spent time in these institutions. Senator Ruane is aware that I am introducing an amendment on the waiver, which will remove some of the ambiguity that she and others raised about the waiver's application. I hope she welcomes that amendment. Regarding the nature of these institutions, I will...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: The mechanism to prove residence continues to be the records of the county home. If a woman was admitted to the county home, she spent a period of time there and, when she went into labour, she moved to its maternity wing or separate maternity building, her residence in the county home is still based on the record of being in the county home. We are trying to distinguish where a woman came...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: In that circumstance, Senator Seery Kearney's point about the use of the affidavit would be valuable in terms of providing additional information where an applicant felt that the cold records did not provide the full context. There would be the opportunity to provide an affidavit to give that additional context to the chief deciding officer in making a determination of eligibility under the...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: Regarding the Senator's initial point about timelines, we know from the history that this institutional relationship was often complex. There will be times when there will have to be some back and forth between an applicant and a chief deciding officer. We have designed the scheme to make it as simple as possible. In the significant majority of cases the scheme will deliver that simplicity...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: We are trying to separate out the women who gave birth in maternity facilities and were there solely for the purpose of the use of those maternity facilities. There were other women who gave birth in maternity facilities who were there because they had been admitted into a county home. We are saying that women in the latter category are entitled to be eligible under the scheme. The scheme...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I thank the Senator. I will make one small point. She mentioned a number of times that you cannot talk about X or Y.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: Yes. For the record, there is no gagging order attached to this waiver. However, I take the Senator's point. County homes were added to the commission's remit even though the vast majority closed much earlier than mother and baby homes. In many ways they were seen as a successor to county homes. The reason county homes were in the original investigation, and payments sought is because of...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: We could probably go back and forth, so we are probably best off to stop there.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I think Senator Seery Kearney has given a fair estimation of what this scheme does.The Government has never claimed that this scheme provides an answer to every single instance of the mistreatment of pregnant women in our country. It is designed around mother and baby and county home institutions. On Senator Ruane's point, I do not agree that because a county home was on a site, and somebody...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: If a woman went to the Mayo county home, she will be included in this scheme. If a woman gave birth in a hospital located on the same site at any time subsequent to that, and I do not know the geography there, this scheme recognises that in many of these places, a separate maternity service was created, set up, and often availed of by the general public. It is recognising that is not the...

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I am not sure if I have anything more constructive to say at this point.

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: I do not accept that there is a query over the years that are being used in the concluding year. We have undertaken significant work in terms of ascertaining what that is. However, recognising that this is an important question, we have also built into it, as one of the amendments that is part of this suite of amendments, a provision whereby it will be done by secondary legislation....

Seanad: Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Bill 2022: Report Stage (14 Jun 2023)

Roderic O'Gorman: It is in terms of its use as a county home.

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