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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I have been arguing that we should domestically legislate for confirmation of payee and the reimbursement scheme. That argument has not been taken on board by the Government. I understand that the Government sets policy and the Department is there to advise. We now have the directive, which is going to do both those things I have been looking for.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Yes, a regulation that is going to do three of the things I have been seeking for the last year, namely, a compensation mechanism for authorised push payment fraud victims, a confirmation of payee scheme to be set up right across Europe, including here in Ireland and to force the State to enter into a fraud-share database. Does Mr. Palmer welcome the proposals from the European Commission?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: What proportion of payments in Ireland are instant payments?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Confirmation of payee is badly needed. It is needed in this country more than any other country. Why? Because instant payments in the State is a tiny fraction of transactions. In other states they are over 90%. While the SEPA has this big feature, it only applies to less than 10% of payments in the State. Confirmation of payee is required to protect all of the rest of us who do not use...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Can I explain this to Mr. Palmer again? I am sorry, I do not mean “explain” and that was the wrong way to put it. In other European jurisdictions that do not have confirmation of the payee, the majority, in some cases 93%, of their payments are instant payments and they have this covered by SEPA. In Ireland, instant payments make up approximately 3% so we have the biggest gap...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is there any appetite for the Department to move ahead in regard to confirmation of payee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It was the Department of Justice that gave me the figures. As Mr. Palmer said, the figures show a reduction in 2022 but an explosion in 2021, which was related to Covid, with more people at home doing online shopping, who were easier targets for fraud. One thing is very clear. If we look over a longer horizon, this is a losing battle. It is going up and up. We have had people from the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am not going to challenge Mr. Palmer's numbers at this stage because we are running out of time, but the €10 million is an underestimation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: And the Department of Justice.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There is not only an under-reporting; the figure of €10 million is not the actual figure. The figure is a lot higher than that, as far as I am aware. I do not have the reply to the parliamentary question in front of me but the figure is higher than that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I may come back to that. Let us deal with reporting. From a policy perspective, the committee has asked the banks a series of questions. Bank of Ireland responded stating it reports all incidences of authorised push-payment fraud when it or somebody else is the victim. AIB stated it only reports fraud when it is the victim and it encourages the other victim, the third-party victim, to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The Department held it. In this day and age, why are these reports not being sent to the Garda? Why is there a different approach? We do not have many big institutions here, unfortunately. Why is it that one of two main lenders states it reports all cases of fraud to the Garda while the other states it does not, yet the latter runs advertisements asking people to report these crimes? It...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There are meetings with the banks during which issues come up. This is not directing the banks but simply saying to them, "For God's sake folks, report the fraud". They have the information, they know a fraud is being committed and they should pass it on to the Garda. They should not only do it when they are losing money. There are countless thousands of other people losing money and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am only raising it so that somebody will perhaps stick in a note, or perhaps somebody from AIB or Permanent TSB is watching. It was interesting that AIB also went into great detail about the social media platforms. In Britain, compensation must be paid by some of the social media platforms. AIB confirmed to us that it runs anti-fraud campaigns on social media websites. It also stated...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The regulation is a couple of years down the road.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I take Mr. Palmer's point. The Government does not have an economic crime strategy, despite the Hamilton report recommending one over two and a half years ago. The Department of Justice would be the lead policy Department in relation to this. I am sure there is a lot of passing the buck in the room next door, from RTÉ, but the public wants this. We should take off the handcuffs and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Does the Department of Finance have any input or is it led by the Department of Justice? Is there a role for the witnesses?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payments Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (28 Jun 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I appreciate that.