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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The engagement this morning is on general banking matters and we have three witnesses in attendance: Mr. Cormac Butler, who has attended our committee before; Mr. Shane Kavanagh, who also attended our committee before on an issue; and Mr. Tony Lawlor, who will tell us about his experience on the tracker mortgage issue. We had a different agenda for today’s meeting which we will deal...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Lawlor want to comment on that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Lawlor. Has Senator Higgins further questions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I remind Mr. Kavanagh that information in the public domain is fine but not to draw any conclusions on this in terms of the legalities.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Mr. Kavanagh may go ahead.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I ask Mr. Butler to elaborate a little, if he can, on IIB Homeloans Limited and the licence. He was going back to 2008. I presume if that one is giving home loans, one is obliged to have a licence. The Central Bank was asked about this and it said a licence was unnecessary. Mr. Butler went on to say that, after questioning, the Central Bank said it did not hold the licence. Can Mr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Under what circumstances would IIB Homeloans be exempt from section 7?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I will come back to Mr. Butler on what I believe to be a very serious allegation that he his making before he concluded his statement. That relates to a bank that advised a customer that he could receive a bank loan if he entered into partnership with associates of the bank. I do not want Mr. Butler to name the bank or the person. I ask him please not to do so, but will he explain that to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Mr. Butler's statement says that their associates placed much of it back on deposit with the lending bank -----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: ----- in an account held with the Irish Central Bank.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Would the Central Bank not clarify those matters because of the impact on the client?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Is Mr. Butler saying those kinds of transactions that he says took place in 2008 are still having an impact on individuals today, on the borrowers?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Butler. In Mr. Lawlor's opening statement, he said he had a document from the bank that refers to his loan as a tracker. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: He said that he received this document after a court case or after he pursued it with the bank.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Will Mr. Lawlor tell me about the marginal rates? What is the issue around that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Mr. Lawlor mentioned that the bank produced a mortgage deed. Is that the correct description?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Again, I do not want to get into names or into Mr. Lawlor's personal details in any way. I do not want to cause him any distress further to that which has been caused already. Nevertheless, he mentioned that his life had changed completely. Has the bank stopped pursuing him or is it continuing to do so? How stands Mr. Lawlor's house? Does he still live in it? He stated he had had to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Mr. Lawlor remains in his home. Is that the case?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: What have been Mr. Lawlor's experiences of going through the courts?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Matters: Discussion (16 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Deputy Doherty earlier asked Mr. Lawlor for some documents. He might provide them to us.

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