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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Business of Joint Committee. (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank Senator Davitt, who is substituting for Senator Gallagher. He is welcome. His being here is much appreciated. We have received apologies from Senators Gallagher and Ruane. Deputy Niamh Smyth is at another meeting but she may be able to join us later. In the event that she is not able to join, she sends her apologies.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: The purpose of this meeting is to resume our engagement on the general scheme of the judicial appointments commission Bill 2020. We are engaging with stakeholders who made written submissions on the general scheme. This is the second instalment of our engagement on this matter. We had a previous engagement about four weeks ago with a number of other witnesses. I thank Deputy Carroll...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I wonder if all of those not currently contributing could mute their microphones. There is interference coming through. I apologise to Mr. Herrick for interrupting.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Herrick for his concise and targeted opening. I now call to our next witness, Mr. Condon from the Department of Justice. He is very welcome. I look forward to the engagement with him today. Mr. Condon has five minutes to address the committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: Before I call on members, I will start the ball rolling. My first question is for the ICCL but Mr. Condon should feel free to answer if he wishes. It strikes me that one of the deficits in the arrangements we have had for the past 25 years, since the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board was created, is that it appears to act as a sort of Garda vetting mechanism rather than an actual...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: Do we need a change to the Constitution to allow that or can it be done within the current framework?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I agree. Can we do more or is it a necessary prerequisite to have a referendum in order to do more? Perhaps Mr. Condon could advise on that. What is the Department's position?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: My understanding from previous discussions was that the reason the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board could not prioritise or rank candidates to date was that the Constitution mandates that the Government enjoys absolute discretion, and that fettering said discretion may be a constitutional issue. That is what I have heard to date. Does Mr. Condon not feel that is an impediment to the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Condon. I have two questions that relate to his submission. I will then move on to other members. Mr. Condon stated there was, "a recognition that the involvement of laypersons in the process should be increased". He later said, "There will be an equal number of laypersons and judges". I presume that means an equal number of laypersons and legal people. Why is that? It is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I have a final question before I open it up to the floor. Mr. Condon mentioned the 2017 Bill, on which there was much engagement over the course of the previous Dáil. Obviously, we are a new committee and a new Dáil. It is, therefore, a new Bill and we will move forward on that basis. What were the lessons learned? What has Mr. Condon carried forward from that? Has anything...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank both witnesses very much for those details. I will move on to the next speaker. Deputy Martin Kenny had his hand up first. Senator Ward will be up after Deputy Kenny; he may wish to focus on that. Deputy Kenny has the floor.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank Deputy Kenny. I am not sure which of the witnesses wants to take that question first.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Condon. Does that conclude Deputy Kenny's questioning for now?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I thank the Deputy for those questions. Senator Ward will have the next opportunity.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: The last question was addressed to Mr. Herrick if he would like to respond.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: Is Ms McLoughlin-Burke on mute?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: There is an issue with Ms Loughlin-Burke's microphone. I might go to Mr. Condon for a reply. Ms McLoughlin-Burke might take a moment to organise her microphone.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: No. There is a crackle on the line. I will go to Mr. Condon for a reply. It might take a moment to organise Ms McLoughlin-Burke's link.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2020: Discussion (Resumed) (15 Jun 2021)

James Lawless: I apologise for interrupting. Do we know where the noise is coming from? Can Ms McLoughlin-Burke mute her device? I thank her for that. The interference was coming from her end. It seems to have stopped now. She might be able to figure out what is going on while her device is muted and rejoin the meeting if she is able to sort it out. I will pass back to Mr. Condon.

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