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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Before I ask Mr. Hogan to answer those questions, I wish to acknowledge the delegation from the Committee for Financial and Budgetary Affairs of Vietnam’s National Assembly in the Public Gallery. There are a number of politicians and public servants present, a bit like our own mixture this morning. I welcome them to the Committee of Public Accounts. We have the Department of Finance...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: A figure for total commitments was mentioned. According to my notes, 30 PPP schemes were fully operational at the end of 2022, six were at development stage and future commitments totalled €6.3 billion. I have in front of me a pie chart setting out figures for the OPW, housing, health, the courts, education and transport, with the final two being the largest, at €1.7 billion...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: There will be an average of €335 million in ongoing costs up to 2035. The expectation is that they will taper off after then. How steep will that fall be? What is the projected reduction?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Is there anyone present who deals with this area?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Mr. Nolan might have some information.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Regarding the six at development stage, I presume payments only commence when they become operational, or is it from when the contracts are signed?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: I had intended to discuss PPPs later, but since we have hit them, I will continue. The servicing costs of €1.7 billion in respect of education PPPs have increased a fair bit. Is much of that related to new developments at third level colleges?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: The witnesses might provide a note.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Is the school bundle where there were problems with the construction work a PPP or was it a design and build?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: It was a PPP.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: The State carried the risk on those.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: A portion of that comes from the bank bailout. There is a figure of €40.9 billion for EU programme loans. Is that the bank debt?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: Where does the financing of the banking debt stand now? Some of the money that was borrowed for it was subsequently refinanced at a lower rate.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: When will the servicing of those loans be completed? Is it a few decades away?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: The Department’s overall services costs for 2022 were €3.84 billion, an increase of 2.6%, although, obviously, changes interest rates are affecting that. What is the likely projection for the next few years? There was news this morning suggesting that we might not yet be finished with interest rate increases.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: In respect of the residue of national debt, when is that likely to be completed? As I recall, when the legislation was going through - we called it "prom night" - the Department was looking out to 2040-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: A few of us will not be around for it.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: All cash from coming in from bank shares is going to service the national debt. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Brian Stanley: It is 100% back into private ownership.

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