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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: As we have done with a number of meetings in recent times, we are having a hybrid session with some members and witnesses in the room, and some members and witnesses online. We are all getting used to the new normal. This is how we are doing things now and it is working quite well. I ask those who are joining us online to keep their microphones on mute when not speaking and obviously take...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Ms McCreery. We now go to Mr. Warren Graham who joins us from Loughan House. I am delighted that we are able to facilitate this engagement. I think that this may be historic in the sense that we have not had someone from within the prison system giving evidence before a committee before. I thank Senator Ruane in particular for making the introduction and making us aware of Mr....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: Thank you, Mr. Graham. You kept that nicely on time. You wrapped up just before the three-minute mark. Our next witness is Ms Ethel Gavin, former governor of Midlands Prison.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: Thank you, Ms Gavin. Last but not least, I call on Mr. Eddie Mullins, governor of Mountjoy.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: Thank you, Mr. Mullins. That completes our opening round. I thank you all for those opening remarks, which help set the scene and give some context to our discussion. Now I will take members' contributions one at a time. Each member will enjoy a seven-minute slot for questions and answers. First up is Senator Ruane.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: There will be another round of questions after this first round, so there will be further opportunities for engagement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I thank the Senator for those questions. The next speaker is Deputy Pa Daly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I thank the Deputy. That concludes the first round of questions. Everybody who wanted to get in during the first round has got in. I have some questions before we move to the second round. Members may indicate if they want to come in for the second round. I have been following the debate with interest. A number of interesting points have emerged. I would like to make a few comments....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: That is interesting. Does anyone else wish to contribute?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I have a follow-on question. It was mentioned that there was not enough time to work with people who went to prison, but many people who commit offences do not go to prison in any event. Ms Joyce mentioned the justice plan. What specific alternatives could or should be deployed instead of prison for people who go to prison habitually for relatively minor matters?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Joyce. A statistic jumped out from Mr. Mullins's opening remarks, namely, that people from areas of social deprivation were 25 times more likely to end up in prison. That is a stark statistic. I am guessing that they are more likely to follow that path because, due to the environment they are in or others before them having gone down that path, it is an easier path to follow....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: It was mentioned that, while many people were happy to be guided through rehabilitation and it worked well for them, a certain percentage did not want it because of a criminal and financial enterprise. I know that giving a figure is difficult, but is the ratio 75:25, 50:50 or 90:10?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: Which relates to the first point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I am conscious that we are straying over time, but I wish to give Mr. Graham a chance. Does he wish to comment on those exchanges?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: Yes, and on deprivation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I will move on to the second round after my final question. Why is it that not everyone gets those chances? Is it because a person's reputation precedes him or her? Is it because he or she has other difficulties? Why does everyone not get the same opportunities?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: That is a very useful insight. I thank Mr. Graham. I call Senator Ruane to commence the second round of questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Graham and Senator Ruane. I call Senator McDowell, who has joined us for the second round. The time for questions is now slightly shorter, but I will give some latitude.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: There was a good discussion of that earlier and the Senator's point is taken.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion (29 Mar 2022)

James Lawless: This has been a very interesting session. Senators Ward and McDowell discussed whether sentences should be set at the outset or in due course and what degree of latitude should be allowed. Mandatory minimum sentences always generate discussion. The point was made that judges can remove themselves from the emotion of the situation. This is true but I am reminded of "The Shawshank...

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