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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. There is a group called the health budget oversight group and it is made up of members of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the HSE and the Department of Health. Who is on that group from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and what is the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Mr. Dormer is on the group.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: I would have thought the purpose of the group is to ensure the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is aware of the expenditure that is ongoing in the Department of Health and the HSE. Would that be correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: The Department would be aware if there was increasing expenditure by the HSE and the Department of Health. Is that not correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: I note that the group publishes minutes of its monthly meetings and the most recent minutes we have are for the meeting of 6 June 2023. Presumably there were meetings in September and October, whether or not there was one in August. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Was the last meeting in August?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Presumably at that meeting the minutes of the August meeting were agreed. Were they?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: We will shortly see the minutes of the meeting in August being published.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: I would have thought that as of from June of this year, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is aware that expenditure in the Department of Health and in the HSE is subject to significant inflationary pressures and there have been significant rises in expenditure. That seems to be clear from the minutes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: In the minutes for the meetings on 2 May and 17 May, it was recorded that very significant levels of overspend were incurred in the acute hospitals sector for the first quarter of 2023. What is Mr. Dormer's understanding as to why there was this significant overspending in the acute hospitals sector? What is Mr. Dormer's understanding of why that occurred?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Is Mr. Dormer the most senior official from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform who is part of the oversight group?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: In the minutes for 6 June it was recorded that: DPENDR flagged that the Minister for PENDR has strong concerns on Expenditure Management. It is difficult to understand how expenditure has run so far above profile. Does Mr. Dormer recall who it was that communicated this on behalf of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform? Was it Mr. Dormer or...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Was Mr. Dormer aware that the Minister had flagged his strong concerns on expenditure management at that stage?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Would Mr. Dormer or the other officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on the health budget oversight group apprise the Minister that the reason for this increase in expenditure is because of factors such as pressures in acute hospitals and inflationary pressures? I presume the Department would have that information from attending the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: I thank Mr. Dormer. I will go back to Mr. Moloney. We know the budget for 2024 is €22.5 billion.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: The budget for 2023 was €21.3 billion. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: We know there is going to have to be a supplementary budget. I am aware that we cannot identify the full amount of it as yet but it appears it will be somewhere in the region of €1.3 to €1.5 billion. When we take into account the money that will be put in by way of the supplementary budget, it looks like the budget for next year is going to be less than what we are spending...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Budget 2024 Expenditure Ceiling and Resource Allocation for the Department of Health and HSE: Discussion (14 Nov 2023)

Jim O'Callaghan: Is this because the Department is taking into account the €1 billion in the non-core funding for 2024?

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