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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am sorry; the Central Bank of Ireland is saying this. It is on page 9 of the Central Bank's paper. Does Dr. Ugur accept this?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: So if we use the ECB databank that gives us the percentage points, that will show that from May last year to July this year, there was a 0.98% increase in outstanding mortgage pass through rates in this State. It was a 0.66% increase throughout the eurozone.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Does Dr. Ugur accept that Ireland does not have the second-lowest pass through for all outstanding mortgages?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Does Dr. Ugur accept what the Central Bank stated?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: We are not going to mince words but Dr. Ugur is the chief economist for the BPFI and he is telling me that he does not know that the reality is that Ireland is not the second-lowest pass through for outstanding mortgages. That is simply a fact. The fact that he will not acknowledge that-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: We will come back to this. However, Dr. Ugur acknowledges that the claim here relates new mortgages. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: New mortgages, which is a small-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: So now we are back at the same square. Dr. Ugur is saying he does not have the data for outstanding mortgages, yet he is willing to say that the claim is correct. He is, therefore, saying that the claim that we have the second-lowest increase in mortgage interest rates between May 2022 and July 2023 is correct for outstanding mortgages.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It does not say "new mortgages" in the statement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The profits are going through the roof. Mr. Hayes mentioned a point in time in March, which is before a lot of the other interest rate increases. This is based on Davy's research. If any of the witnesses want to tell us what they expect the net interest margin to be in their banks, that is fine, but Davy has projected these figures. They are the ones I used. I should have referenced...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I spend a lot of time dealing with the ECB database and all the rest. I have the email from the Central Bank showing the data that I referred to and I will give it to the banks so they may be able to write to the committee in that regard. Permanent TSB does not provide lending to people whose income is in sterling.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: In my county, there are over 5,000 people who commute across the Border daily and nearly three quarters of them, according to the CSO, are doing that for work. Therefore, there are thousands of people for whom Permanent TSB has decided it will not provide mortgage lending, despite the fact it was rescued by some of those very same people. Before I come back to Permanent TSB, is it the same...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Does Bank of Ireland apply any penalty? Does it reduce the income by 10% or 20% as part of its calculations or does it take the full value of the sterling income in the calculation of the mortgage?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I would appreciate that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Those stress tests are in the region of 20%, is that right? I am not saying that is what AIB applies but it is common for banks to apply 20%, with the exception of Permanent TSB which does not go into that market. There is a question of fairness in this regard, given that this is a small island. I am not familiar with Bank of Ireland but the banks operate across the Border. As I said, my...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Do you not need to?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Nobody is coming in and getting a mortgage over the counter these days.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The banks would not allow it in the first instance even if they wanted to.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: These fall under the definition, under the consumer mortgages credit agreement regulations of 2016, as foreign currency loans. What AIB and Bank of Ireland offer, even though they operate on both sides of the Border, is a foreign currency loan. It will be deemed a foreign currency if a loan is provided to one person in one jurisdiction whose income comes from another jurisdiction. It is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Banking Issues: Discussion (27 Sep 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I will leave it at that, on that point, and ask that the banks look at their own operations and the penalty that applies. The Good Friday Agreement requires all of us to try to harmonise issues on an all-island basis and that 20% penalty is sometimes excessive. I want to mention an issue I raised two years ago with Mr. Crowley and others, and that is the instant payment app. It is...

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