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Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Prosecuted.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: The HSE guidelines, therefore, are not enough. Is that what Dr. Mahony is saying? They do not protect the doctor.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is that Professor Malone's view also?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: The doctor is not permitted to intervene at that point. Is that what Professor Malone is saying?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: On an important point of order, a reference was made to a third party, Ms Cora Sherlock of the pro-life campaign, who I happen to know. I would be fairly sure that she was referring to 90% as the figure for Britain, which makes its own point about what happens once this is legalised. Whether I am correct in that, it is utterly unfair that it would be alleged that a third party got her facts...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I thank the Chairman.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: She does not need to, in fact.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Okay. I appreciate the Chairman giving me the opportunity to make that a point of order.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I will just say a few words seeing as I have been drawn into this. I have no problem with an analysis of the quality of evidence being produced by Deputy McGrath but I object to the motivations of any member-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Health Care Issues Arising from the Citizens' Assembly Recommendations: Masters of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street and the Rotunda Hospital (11 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Words such as glib are unhelpful. Senator Buttimer has a point but is being unfair-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I repeat my apologies. As a result of a family bereavement, I was unable to be here earlier. Professor Binchy is very welcome. I congratulate him on being a voice of sanity and compassion over the years in an increasingly uncaring world. His activity on behalf of people with disabilities, his great work promoting the rule of law and helping the rule of law in Africa stands in perfect...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Second, in terms of figures, there appears to have been an attempt to put in issue the idea that Ireland's abortion rates are lower than those in other countries. Let us take Deputy Coppinger's figures in terms of the proportion of drug-induced abortions, and there was reference to at least three others – compared with ten women travelling. That is a tragic situation. Everybody...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: That is as I understood it to be. Those issues are important because rather than being so fast and loose about facts in respect of an issue that is life-and-death in nature, it is really important that we strive for clarity. That means telling the full story. Going back to the question of abortions having been prevented, it is the case is it not that in Northern Ireland it was claimed that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: On the question of human rights, I have heard the Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe say human rights do not apply before birth. Professor Binchy was a member of the Irish Human Rights Commission at one point. I note with concern that the Convention on the Rights of the Child refers, in its preamble, to the right of the child before as well as after birth but this...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I apologise for using the term "not give a damn". That phrase does not normally attract censure in these Houses but I accept Professor Binchy's correction.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Could I ask Professor Binchy and Ms Zampas whether either of them is aware of a situation where any human rights body has ever deprecated an abortion law on the grounds that it cut across the rights of unborn children in some way? I would welcome a response.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is there any example of a human rights intervention against an abortion law on the grounds that it impacts the rights of the unborn?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is it Ms Zampas's contention that the preamble-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I will roll my comments together for Ms Zampas then. Does she think that the preamble to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, in which reference is made to the right of the child before as well as after birth to care, etc., would still be there were it to be drawn up today, given that she has accepted my point that there is no human rights intervention in favour of the unborn against...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Constitutional Issues Arising from the Citizens Assembly Recommendations (4 Oct 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I am coming to a conclusion but I am contextualising my question. I am the last speaker and I am not holding anyone else up. It appears to be the case that the figures are there yet Ms Zampas does not seem to be aware of them. Can she shed any light on that for me?

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