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Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Another item raised by the C and AG was the €107 million listed on page 30 of the financial statements. Just to clarify, none of that has accrued yet. It has been paid to BAM and, obviously, there is a bond in place.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: At the same time, however, it has been felt, more so than the rest of the claims, that there is a reason. What is the difference between the €800 million and the €107 million? The €107 million had to have been paid. Why is that sitting separate from the €800 million and recognised in two completely different parts of the financial statements?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Obviously that supersedes the €50 million. It would be double the number, but that would be similarly related.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: I know that-----

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: -----but the NPHDB has had to pay double that amount.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: A third party has ordered it to be paid.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: The initial cost of the project was €800 million. That rose to €1.2 billion, the €1,74 billion and now stands at €2.24 billion. What is the key driver of that increase on the NPHDB's side? The contractor indicated that it relates to design change. Does Mr. Gunning agree?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Mr. Gunning is saying the escalating costs are tied in with the escalating time. What contractual levers are in place for the NPHDB to manage BAM's performance?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: If those opportunities are not available to us, from Mr. Gunning's own perspective, does he feel the full resources are on the contractor's side to enable it to do the work? Is it his view, from a project perspective, that that is the case?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Jumping across to CHI, is the previous CEO still in the employment of CHI?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: How is that so? Was that person in a contracted position?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Even then, is there not a protocol in place whereby CHI would not enter into confidentiality agreements with CEOs?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: No, but we are discussing having confidentiality agreements in place. There would be a protocol against something like that, surely.

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Okay. Were legal costs incurred in that regard?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: This is taxpayers' money at the same time and there is a free legal avenue as well. Does Ms Nugent know if the free legal avenue was explored or whether costs were incurred to the State?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: To clarify, the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies states that a body "should not enter into confidentiality agreements which preclude it from disclosing details." A protocol is in place. It is contained in section 8.4, entitled "Oversight Agreements". From the other perspective, given the issues we have had from the children's perspectives and the letters that were...

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Notwithstanding the difficulties with the families and everything else to be gone through, has Ms Nugent looked at the implications across all spectrums and, as this is the public accounts committee, from a financial perspective as well?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: I was not quite expecting to get back to it, but at the same time I have been racking my brains. There is quite a bit to go through. I am not sure whether my first question is for Mr. Devine or Mr. Gunning. How much has been paid directly to the primary contractor to date?

Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland: Discussion (22 May 2025)

Joe Neville: Some €900 million.

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