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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: It is always good to go to Cork obviously.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Under head 16, part of the external oversight body's role is to develop a strategy statement. What will be in the strategy? When will it be put together and by whom and what are the parameters?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: There was a time when a Member of the Oireachtas who became bankrupt had to leave the Oireachtas but that is no longer the case. I note that head 10 provides that if a member of the external oversight body "is adjudicated bankrupt", he or she shall cease to be a member. Is that provision a bit archaic?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Does the external oversight body have a headquarters or premises yet?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Will there be a CEO or such a person?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: No.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Head 24 refers to the "Preservation of contracts" and states "Every contract, agreement or arrangement made between the Minister and any other person" shall be "transferred to the External Oversight Body", etc. Head 23 refers to the "Transfer of rights and liabilities to External Oversight Body". What kinds of rights and liabilities does this refer to?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: From time to time, this committee takes an interest in the issue of diversity. Obviously, we had diversity regarding gender. We now have a lot of people living in Ireland who were born in other countries. Will Professor MacCraith comment on how the external oversight body will engage with these other cultures? We have already seen people wearing headgear and different items of clothing in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Will the external oversight body have oversight of the Office of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Should it have such oversight?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: The Defence Forces Ombudsman is all about complaints-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: ----- from members of the Defence Forces. That is on the oversight body's agenda too. Is there a risk of having a twin-track approach here or a conflict or lack of synergies if there is an engagement and there is some sort of understanding as to the roles of the two bodies?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: I have been looking at the whole issue of aptitude testing for people who want to join the Defence Forces. I am not sure if our guests have looked at the test. I am sure they would all fly through them with no problem but the Chair and I have had difficulties trying to get through them. I certainly have, anyway; not the Chair. Have the witnesses any view on the aptitude testing? I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: I have a final question. I have not seen any reference to the body’s engagement with an Oireachtas committee and whether it would report to a committee on a regular basis as part of its work. The heads are very loose and when the Bill is published it will be tightened up fully. Our job here is to try to see if there are any suggestions we could make for it. That is something I have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Apart from increasing the number of the board of the body by two initially -----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: ----- is there anything else that should be included in the heads of the Bill that are not there or that are there and should be removed?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Thank you.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: I believe the Act says that one can go straight through to the ombudsman but the feeling is that if one goes through the system which the Senator is talking about, that there might be a faster resolution. I wonder about the effectiveness of the ombudsman's findings and how impactful they are. At the end of the day, that might be something worth looking at if it is within the remit of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: Should we include something in the legislation where if there is a vote of the members of the body where there was a very deeply-felt difference of opinion, that there would be some way of resolving that? Would there be a minority report or how would Professor MacCraith see that working? We do not want to see a situation like that arising as we are dealing with serious issues here and there...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: General Scheme of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (27 Feb 2024)

David Stanton: The body will have a statutory legal function with even a badge, or whatever it is called, and the way the body comes to a decision as a group will probably need to be statutorily laid down as well, I imagine, in some way, if such a conflict ever arose and hopefully it will not.

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