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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The sound quality is very bad.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Continue, please.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: I thank the Minister of State. Apologies have been received from Deputy Doherty.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: For clarification, the Minister of State is dealing with Votes on the Department of the Taoiseach and the Central Statistics Office. The Deputy is free to ask him the question.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: On the different offices, there are consultancy services, value for money and policy reviews-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The Department of the Taoiseach. The table in section 2 relates to consultancy services, value for money and policy reviews. That same subhead is used for the Office of the Attorney General and other offices as you go through the Estimates. What consultancy services are being talked about, generally? Who carries out the value for money and policy reviews? In 2020, the cost was...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: To clarify, under the Department of the Taoiseach there was provision of €18,000 in 2020 for consultancy services, value for money and policy reviews. The total was €18,000. Likewise, in 2021, €18,000 is set aside. Presumably the €18,000 in 2020 was spent. Is that correct?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Why is it here? I am looking at 2020 Estimates. I see the figure of €18,000 for administration, and in 2021 the same figure is restated. From looking at this it would appear that €18,000 was spent in 2020 and I am just wondering what that is. I will point out, again, that under the Office of the Attorney General-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Nothing was spent. That is just a provision then for 2021?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Under the Office of the Attorney General, on page 3, again there is the same heading. For 2020 it says the current total is €43,000 and in 2021 it says that the current total is €35,000. Is the Minister of State saying that under that heading nothing was spent either? Why put it in if nothing is being spent? While the Minister of State is looking at that, the Central...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: It may have been quite small, but I am interested that under every office - the Central Statistics Office, the Office of the Attorney General, and the Department of the Taoiseach - these figures are included in the Estimates. It appears these Estimates for 2020 were spent and there is an arrangement in 2021 for a similar spend. Are these consultancy services, value for money and policy...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: On the procurement process also, relative to that. I thank the Minister of State for that. I wish to check the detail on the Department staff and numbers of grades at the end of 2020. There is a grade of Secretary General, and is it correct that there is then a second Secretary General? Are there two? This is on page 16, under the Department staff and numbers of grades heading. There...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Yesterday before the committee, Mr. Fraser made the point that there is really no head of the Civil Service. There is no one person who takes the responsibility of the totality of the civil servants who are Secretaries General. Is this something that should be addressed so there is a Secretary General, perhaps the Government Secretary General, who should be responsible for the others? It...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: And the costings.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The Minister of State referred to Moriarty, IBRC and NAMA. The Moriarty tribunal continues to run in terms of costs. Is there any thing the Department can do to speed up the settlement of those costs in order to have them dealt with once and for all? Perhaps it can take initiatives to ensure we save taxpayers' money.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: In relation to the IBRC commission, the application was made and the Taoiseach is considering that. In that consideration, can the Department of the Taoiseach discuss with him the end date in this regard or are there any controls in relation to bringing it to an end, while at the same time dealing with all of the issues that are there?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The Minister of State will have heard umpteen times in the Dáil from many other Members - I have an interest in this case - about the death of Shane O’Farrell. It is a significant issue and it runs across a number of Departments including the DPP, and so on. A scoping exercise is being undertaken. I raise it as often as I can with the Taoiseach because this is now the tenth...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: The Minister of State might also remind him of two other matters. I raised it with previous holders of the office of Taoiseach when they came before the committee, so I am not doing anything extraordinary in raising it here again with the Minister of State representing the Taoiseach. I refer to the Grace case and the 46 other cases which are being dealt with by the Department of Health. It...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2021 (Resumed)
Vote 1 - President's Establishment (Revised)
Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach (Revised)
Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised)
Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised)
Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised)
Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised)
(3 Jun 2021)

John McGuinness: On the legal fees paid by the Department of the Taoiseach and the various agencies under its remit, are the legal services procured in a way that is open and transparent and gives everyone a chance to submit a quote for the service? How is the Government ensuring value for money in that area? Could the committee have a list setting out how much the various barristers and senior counsel are...

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