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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: My question was concerned more with the current structure, and Mr. McCarthy is right that the structure exists, in the context of the time and resources that the members of audit committees have and whether that structure enables them to scrutinise the audit reports in the same way as we do at the Committee of Public Accounts, for example. My knowledge of local audit committees is that they...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: If that is the case, and many people would agree with that position and it is welcome that Mr. McCarthy voiced it, what structural changes can we make to improve the ability of local authority members to audit or scrutinise an audit?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: NOAC has not yet carried out any work in this area. Perhaps Mr. Hayes might wish to contribute.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I may discuss that further with Mr. Hayes in my later round. I know I have gone over time. I appreciate Mr. Hayes and Mr. McCarthy clarifying that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I thank Deputy Gould. He is over time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I thank Deputy Gould. Three minutes are left, so I propose to give Senator Boyhan a minute and to give myself a minute, and hopefully the witnesses will be able to answer in one minute, because we have another group of witnesses coming at 4.30 p.m.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Many of Senator Boyhan's points echo my opening questions about the local government audit. I ask the witnesses to revisit that, as Senator Boyhan asked. The second area I hope the witnesses would consider having NOAC look at, though I appreciate it has a considerable amount on its agenda, is transparency about applications for housing, between the Department of Housing, Local Government...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: We will be doing a report out of this piece of work. I welcome the suggestion that the officials are open to recommendations from the committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: All significant changes since the new Government, but of course I would say that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: National Oversight Audit Commission’s 2021 Annual Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I am very pleased that the witnesses are with us today and thank them for their time. The committee very much appreciates their being here today. We will suspend for five minutes to allow the new witnesses to take their seats.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: We are now in public session. I thank our witnesses for their attendance. From the Local Government Audit Service we are joined by Ms Niamh Larkin, director of audit, and Mr. Richard Murphy, principal local government auditor. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I thank Ms Larkin. With the agreement of those members present, Senator Boyhan will take the first slot. I advise members that as a result, their speaking time will be seven minutes later than originally agreed. If members are not present when their slot is called we will do our best to include them at a subsequent slot.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I thank Ms Larkin and she may return to the other points later. In a similar vein, I have a question that I also put to NOAC. I am a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and the discussion about the degree of oversight of public spending at local government level has taken place at the Committee of Public Accounts and this committee. I say this as someone who was a member of a local...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: But are the resources there to support the structures?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Unfortunately, there is a unique factor in local government in that you are not allowed owe the local authority any money, be it a library fine or a bill of any nature. As a result of this mistake, there may be local authority members who will not be able to run again and I think this is a very serious issue in a democracy.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I appreciate Ms Larkin's replies.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I will interrupt for a moment. Deputy Gould has a seven-minute slot but the next speaking slot available is also for Sinn Féin. I will allow the Deputy the full Sinn Féin allocation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: That is fine.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: To return to the comparison of resources that I raised earlier, Senator Boyhan makes a valid point that it is a very small number of members of the local authority who would be members of the audit committee and so, first, would be aware of the LGAS reports and, second, would be aware of the response to that report, and then would have an ability to raise it in what is often a very busy...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government: Local Government Audit Service Report: Discussion (17 May 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I do not wish to ask about specific details, but could Ms Larkin clarify the point about the circumstances that arise when a report is not published? That is an important point.

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