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Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Does Dr. Fletcher think the unborn baby has any rights before birth?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Does Dr. Fletcher mean value only to the extent that another human being invests value in it? Is that her position?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I thank Dr. Fletcher. I was struck by her rationale when speaking about on-request abortion. I do not know whether this is her view but she appeared to cite the view with approval. It struck me that there was something Sir Humphrey-like about the idea that an on-request basis for abortion in some way offers some respect to the unborn because it might be argued in certain cases, but I do...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Would Dr. Fletcher accept that from the point of view that the unborn baby has rights as a human being, decriminalisation does not make sense?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I might say in passing by way of some kind of compliment that Dr. Fletcher is an example of an expert that has a very particular, definite view as opposed to being an advocacy group. Professor Fionnuala McAuliffe, the then head of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, said in hearings here in 2013 that regardless of the legislation being discussed, she and her colleagues would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Provided it is medically safe to do so.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Does Dr. Fletcher accept that to speak of abortion care, as she does repeatedly, does not make sense if one is thinking also in terms of the unborn baby as an entity that deserves protection?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: But not for the baby?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Medical Law Review: Dr. Ruth Fletcher, Queen Mary University London (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: We have been doing it very successfully for years in this country, caring for both mothers and babies, as our medical history attests.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I thank Dr. McCarthy for his presentation. I will start by drawing his attention to his remarks regarding his not wanting to return to an era of illegal back street abortions and infanticide. Any reasonable person would shudder at the thought of living in such an era. Would Dr. McCarthy say that a scenario that is as horrific is that in modern Britain where there is an abortion rate which...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is that a yes or no to the British scenario being somewhat horrific?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: When Dr. McCarthy speaks of them, is he thinking about two patients including the baby, irrespective of how welcome he or she might be then? Does he feel he has a duty of care to the baby?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: What about ethically? What is Dr. McCarthy's own outlook?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I suppose I mean requests for abortion and the British law. We will move on as we are stuck for time. That really is the big problem with our work. Dr. McCarthy referred to research. We all agree that good quality research is necessary for normal functioning of the law and we cannot ignore it. I draw Dr. McCarthy's attention to the work of Professor David Fergusson. I am sure we agree...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Professor McCarthy referred to it by implication.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: We are shot for time. Counselling is one thing. Given that there is at least one life at stake, and potentially two, the gravity involved, the culture of informed consent which applies in other areas of medicine and the duty of care involved, surely it is not excessive to expect a basic investigation to see what type of person is before one? I refer to a study from Professor Ferguson....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Let us say some men.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is Professor McCarthy agreeing with me that it would be wrong to invoke health as grounds for termination? Professor Ferguson said his conclusions have important, if uncomfortable, implications for clinical practice and the law in its interpretation in jurisdictions which require abortion to be authorised on medical grounds. He went on to state his view was that the growing evidence...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Do not mind why I am asking it. The question is important.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Risks to Mental Health: Dr. Anthony McCarthy, National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street (8 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Could Professor McCarthy repeat that?

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