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Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I move amendment No. 7: In page 11, to delete lines 14 to 20 and substitute the following: " "(a) to be investigated under section 177, or".".

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I move amendment No. 8: In page 12, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following: “Amendment of section 196 of Principal Act 17. Section 196 of the Principal Act is amended, in subsection (1), by the substitution of “The Director” for “The prosecutor”.”. The director of military prosecutions is responsible for the conduct of any prosecution...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I move amendment No. 9: In page 14, line 19, to delete “In this section” and substitute “In this section,”. These are technical amendments to correct minor typographical issues relating to both sections. In page 14, line 19, to delete "In this section" and substitute "In this section,". There is a comma in the second bit. Amendment No. 14 does a similar...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: First of all, the independent review group, of which Ms Bronagh O'Hanlon was chairperson, did a year-long assessment and investigation of abuse within the Defence Forces. Her report was fairly damning, if we are to be honest. At the time in the House, members of the Opposition were unanimous in saying to me that I must accept the recommendations of the independent review group. In advance...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: From my point of view - and the Deputy is also a former Minister - if an external oversight body wants to effect change, it has to engage with the Secretary General and ultimately with me as Minister. What is happening is that it is charged with producing reports. I have no hand, act or part in those reports.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: No, I do not actually. I do not ring up the chair, Brian MacCraith, which I could. He worked with me previously on the implementation board for vaccines during the Covid-19 pandemic. However, with respect to the effective working through of proposals, efficacy and such things, there is a logic as to why the Secretary General is on it. I can see why the judge made that recommendation. I...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I recall Deputy Cronin's horror at the outcome of the IRG's report when it was published. I met the chair of the independent review group into the allegations that were made. We met the judge and a number of members who were absolutely adamant that it be external to the Defence Forces. This is an external oversight body over the Defence Forces, not necessarily over the Department. That is...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: Yes. Not just the Chief of Staff-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I will.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: Deputy Carthy stated, and I might have mentioned it earlier, that this is not a competition between the Defence Forces and the Department.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: But there is a sense of it. Do not worry. It is being suggested. Maybe not here, but it is in the background and in the ether. We all live in the real world and that is there. Deputy Carthy did kind of suggest it just now. What I am trying to say is that this is not about Exchequer resources. It is about cultural transformation of our Defence Forces as defined by the independent...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: Resourcing is not the issue with the Defence Forces. Let us call a spade a spade. If the Deputy goes through that report, he will see that it is not an issue of resourcing. We need to be clear what we are dealing with here, as identified by the independent review group. I look back on the Dáil debate prior to the publication of the report. All the pressure on me was to make sure I...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I did. We have gone through all of them.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: We have. That is in the statutory tribunal. The issue with toxic chemicals in Baldonnell is covered by the terms of reference of the tribunal. We have followed through on all of the recommendations. Everyone was lambasting me in advance-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: -----and asking whether I would accept the recommendations. When the report was published, I was again asked if I would accept them and I said that I would. I have done so, including this particular one. What I am trying to get across is that the fundamental purpose of the external oversight body is to try to deal with the issues that were raised by the independent review group. It is...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: I move amendment No. 14: In page 26, line 42, to delete "In this Schedule" and substitute "In this Schedule,".

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: We discussed this earlier in another context. The suite of amendments to the Defence Act 1997 in section 23 provides a statutory basis for the Minister for Defence to authorise Permanent Defence Force representative associations to associate with the Irish Congress for Trade Unions. The amendments proposed by the Deputies would remove the mechanism by which associate membership of ICTU...

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: The context is progress. For the first time ever Defence Forces representatives-----

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: So was mine. Well, not an official but a shop steward.

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (23 May 2024)

Micheál Martin: That is why my father founded an alternative union. He was a founding member of the National Busmen's Union. The Deputy will understand they wanted more and they did not think they were getting enough in the existing trade union. Someone else told me they were active people who wanted to keep active but that is a different question. The point I am trying to make, all things in a more...

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