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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I want to move on to some other questions because the Secretary General is absolutely missing the point. We all agree there needs to be better engagement and we hope that the Department will endeavour to do that. However, the Secretary General and the Minister are making statements as statements of fact insisting that the Department engages. It does not say that the Department endeavours...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I can say it is across the board. It may be happening with direct builds, but it does not happen with emergency accommodation in respect of hotels, houses etc. When we met last October, I asked how many intermediaries are used by the Department and Ms Baxter said it was probably three or four. However, the correspondence from the Department dated 14 February, just in the last few days,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I had asked a number of questions for which the departmental officials did not have answers the last time. How many properties are engaged via intermediaries? How many people are accommodated in properties engaged through intermediaries?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Do those 23 properties include individual houses?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Do intermediaries contract individual houses?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: The departmental officials stated this the last time as well. A large house in my constituency was purchased recently. It is now housing Ukrainian refugees, for good or for bad. However, it does not fit in with the information we are receiving from the Secretary General.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: In this instance I am told there are 11 residents.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Who determines the capacity?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: So, if the provider were to advise that they have a property with a capacity for more than 15 but a local authority fire officer says it can actually only accommodate 11 people, do I take it the property would no longer be used for that purpose? Yes. Our intention is not to be contracting properties for fewer than 15 people. Obviously, there is the offer-a-home scheme, which the Department...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Is that the case even if they are going through an intermediary?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I wish to discuss the intermediaries. Mr. McCarthy indicated that there are 23 properties relating to emergency accommodation. I take it that is for non-Ukrainian refugees. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Mr. McCarthy mentioned that there are two intermediaries specifically in respect of the Ukrainian programme. How many properties are under the auspices of those intermediaries and how many individuals are involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: At this stage we are talking about 100 properties through intermediaries. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: If my figures are correct, there are more than 5,000 individuals. That is substantial. From my reading of Mr. McCarthy's correspondence in respect of 2021, I had concluded that there were eight properties at that stage. In October of last year he indicated he was moving away from intermediaries and trying to deal directly with property owners, yet the number of properties has increased to 100.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: How much was paid to intermediaries in 2022?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: What is the total for general emergency accommodation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: We are up €50 million, which is a lot of money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: We spoke last time, and I am still not satisfied with the responses, about why a property owner would go through an intermediary. If I recall correctly, I was told that it was more or less on a par whether there is a differential in what the Department is paying on property through an intermediary versus through direct negotiations. I know there are different arrangements for each one. Is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Does the Department inform the local authority about all these? I do not mean in the way that it informs elected representatives. I mean, does the Department formally inform local authorities that X property is now being used for this purpose?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
(16 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I am just following on from the questions the Chair was asking in respect of inspections. As a matter of course, would the Department expect local authority fire officers, for example, to carry out an inspection of all of the properties?

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