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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank the Deputy. I will go back to the classification of workers with Mr. McKeon for the moment. Different estimates have been put on this and we have discussed this with the Department here before. At this point, will the Department accept that there is still a significant problem with bogus self-employment or misclassification of workers in this State?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I am interested in a "Yes" or a "No".

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Can I ask a follow-on question from that, please? What sectors does Mr McKeon believe that this phenomenon is most prevalent in, in his experience?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: The media, okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: On the airline sector, would that apply across the board with the main companies operating - without the naming of any companies - or is it more or less confined to one or two particular companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay. On the media, obviously the national State broadcaster, RTÉ, is a case in point and we have discussed this matter a great deal with Revenue, with Mr. McKeon's Department and indeed with RTÉ. On the 695 cases which are under examination at the moment, 160 have been determined already. Does that leave the 695 cases or does that 160 come out of the 695?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Obviously there is a role here also for Revenue. Is it a case with regard to those 160 cases which have been determined that Revenue would take the same position as the Department of Social Protection? Are there differences with regard to the approach of Revenue and the approach of Mr. McKeon's Department and, indeed, in the outcome?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: As regards the Department's engagement with RTÉ, Mr. McKeon said he has been engaging with the organisation and has met RTÉ management on this issue. How many are employed in RTÉ on the basis that they are independent contractors as opposed to being employees? We know that there are approximately 1,800 employees in RTÉ so what does that translate to?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will ask Mr. Daly. Where there are a number of other people who are not actual employees, how many such individuals in total does he estimate are working in RTÉ who are not employees?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. McKeon as that answer captures this point. On the educational sector, one of the things which surprised me over the past year or so, when one starts to look at this, is there that there seems to be a significant number of people in the third level institutions who are employed as contractors. Are these mainly lecturers or what is the situation there?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: So are junior lecturers more likely to be independent contractors.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Is the examination to be carried out by the Department around the issue where there seems to be regular workers there. In other words, they are there this week, they will be there after Easter and they will be back after September. Is that the type of arrangement?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: At the start of this examination, it was thought that this phenomenon would perhaps be in the construction industry and among couriers. Certainly, one has now started seeing it in the media and education sector.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Staying with the third level sector for the moment, has there been in engagement with the Department of further and higher education on this and if there has not been, will there be?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: It is actually increasing in the third level sector.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: We have identified that that is one area that the Department intends examining. Are there other areas? Is the media one of the other areas or are construction and couriers the main ones? What are the main areas which the Department intends to examine?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: If there is a case pending, I will not be asking Mr. McKeon to go into any detail. Those are some of the areas, however, the Department is looking at. Back in 2021, if I understand this correctly, the employment status unit of the day looked at 90 cases and held that 44% of those were missed classifications. It that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know that this process was targeted so I understand that that figure would be high.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Can Mr. McKeon give me those figures again, please?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: It is high enough.

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