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Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: As Mr. Thompson said, he is not an expert on foetal pain. He is not certain enough of the dimensions of a 24-week-old foetus to be able to guide the committee in-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Yet he put them through his hands, if I can use the expression. I am trying to establish whether, in the context of foetal pain, he can be certain about that either.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: He said he is not an expert on foetal pain. When Mr. Thompson carries out an ultrasound-guided abortion, what does he see? I have never seen such a thing. When he gives an injection, does the unborn move in any way? Is that indicative of feeling or any kind of awareness? Is it merely the nervous system? Can he give us an image of the procedure in that regard?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Lest the Royal College be wrong, what are the consequences of precautionary pain relief? The language the college uses is far from certain.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I am finished. In the words of the late Spike Milligan,------

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: -----there is no Queen's counsel to take their brief in any event. I thank the witness for answering my questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Termination in Cases of Foetal Abnormality: Mr. Peter Thompson, Birmingham Women's and Children's Hospital (29 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I am happy to accept that clarification. Not much rests on it but I am happy to accept the clarification that Mr. Thompson came to give evidence. It was very illuminating evidence.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I thank the witnesses for attending and for their very interesting presentation, which brought to light something I had not realised, namely, that the number of Irish women having abortions in the Netherlands is very small. There has been a narrative in this country that while 3,000 to 3,500 Irish women go to Britain for abortions, we are often reminded that there are more going to the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Would the witnesses have any idea of the post-24 week number of abortions? Are they included in the figures the witnesses have given us?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Will the witnesses give us an idea of the total number of abortions that take place after 24 weeks?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Being born or aborted?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: How many pregnancies over 24 weeks are terminated in a year?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: A very small number. We have a tradition here in Ireland where children with Down's syndrome are perhaps more cherished than in many other countries. We are very proud of our international Special Olympics. Many people testify to the joy that Down's syndrome children bring into their lives and how the children change their lives in a positive way. There has been much concern and debate...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Some 90%? I thank Professor Pajkrt. She refers, going through the guidelines of the general considerations, to asking if the pregnancy has been correctly dated with a scan and that, in case of doubt, a scan should be performed. The guidelines state that when referring for a scan, it should be mentioned whether it is an undesirable pregnancy. Many people in this country, not just people of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Surely the woman should be given the straight option of seeing the scan? It might save a life.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Abortion rates in the Netherlands are somewhere between two and three times our rate, depending on how one counts them. Is it not the case that the system is to provide abortion on request? Professor Pajkrt pitches it with regard to emergencies, but is anybody ever refused an abortion? Does she have figures on that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: What Professor Pajkrt is really talking about-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is it not fair to say that nobody really claims that abortion is a light decision? Most people who speak about this issue, whether they see two lives to protect or just one, will acknowledge that this is a crisis. The last speaker in before Professor Pajkrt, yesterday evening, was a person who opposes abortion and has a child with severe disability. She spoke empathically about how every...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Yes. Do the witnesses acknowledge that is the stark truth of their position?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Obstetric Medicine in the Netherlands: Professor Sjef Gevers and Professor Eva Pajkrt, University of Amsterdam (23 Nov 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Even though-----

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