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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes, that is correct.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Regarding the figures on the costs, the vast majority of that cost is simply going into the setting up of the office and the work that is needed to make sure it is fully operational. Regarding free legal aid, it is up to the office to come to me and my Department and make any proposals it wishes to ensure that those who make protected disclosures are not deterred by a high level of legal...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: With the Department, I am currently evaluating what steps can be taken to deal with the issue of delivery. The increased level of capital investment within our economy in 2016 stood at well below €4 billion. For 2023, it is just above €12 billion, so over seven years it has tripled. I want to look at the steps we can take that will lead to the spending of that capital...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I see two areas of change. The first will be through the operation of the oversight body for the NDP. In that body, which consists of senior civil servants, the two Departments the Deputy referenced already are appropriately and strongly represented. The issue I want to consider is whether the oversight body is playing a proper remit in the delivery of capital spending inside a given year....

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: The truth is that there is always a risk it will only be a change of name. That risk is there, and the Secretary General and I are very much aware of it. That is why, in answering a question Deputy Mairéad Farrell put to me, I made the point that this is a change of name that has to become a change of mandate. It is something I am determined to do. As a first stage, I will be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Is the Deputy referring to the Brexit adjustment reserve unit?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I understand the recruitment is complete. There are eight individuals in the Brexit adjustment reserve unit and ten in the NRRP unit .

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I make two points in respect of the Deputy's excellent question. The first is that there are inevitably going to be trade-offs between how we respond to legitimate challenges and issues of the past, including those of yesterday, recent years or further back, and how we meet the needs of today, let alone in the context of how we invest in the future. Those trade-offs may not always be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes. There is little doubt that how the Government responded in respect of properties that were ruined by mica in turn framed the response it had to make with regard to dealing with apartments that were affected by defects. When you make a decision in one area, it frames decisions that you may make in the same area in the future. That is why then when the Government gets into issues...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: In regard to the governance and legal issues referred to by Deputy Farrell, overall across the Government they very much sit with the individual line Departments. We monitor overall governance issues and become involved in issues in which the Department has a very explicit role. In terms of the balance between the management of public expenditure and the fulfilment of the obligations...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: There are three different areas of consideration. The first is the question of how, within the existing structure and resources, we can get to a point at which we are not just looking at how we manage and even contain expenditure within a given year but also how that expenditure translates into the delivery of a small number of very important capital projects for the Government. At this...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: They will be doing three particular things. First, they will be engaging with the European Commission to ensure we are accessing the money on time for projects that meet the criteria of the fund. Second, when the funding is accessed, they will work with Departments to ensure the money is spent in the way that is intended. Third, they will look at both the communication of that work and how...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: The Deputy's questions reflect the key point to the effect that on the issues that I have referred to regarding legacy construction issues, for both of those matters it did involve the standards of that time not being met, either in construction or in the use of raw materials. Of course, that is really relevant to the decisions that Government has to make. On the Deputy's question...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: The way we are doing that is through the recruitment of new staff. Those staff are being recruited to allow the laboratory to meet some of the standards to which the Deputy just referred, in particular those that the Coroner Service has with regard to post-mortem samples and those relating to the new EU legislation on food safety. The way that need is being met at the moment is through the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: They are in a position to meet the needs of many different clients, which range from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine all the way across to the Office of the State Pathologist. They have an incredibly wide range of clients whose needs they must meet. Do they have the ability to meet those needs? Yes, I believe they do, but it is also worth saying that this is an area in...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: On a couple of occasions, the Deputy has raised the issue of the sending of work abroad. I do not have that detailed information regarding what share of their work is performed outside the jurisdiction but I will ask my officials to get some information on that, given the Deputy has raised it twice. What I can tell him is that the kinds of targets that the State Laboratory has include, for...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: As the Deputy will know, the officials of the Comptroller and Auditor General oversee the issues in regard to use of money for the secret service Vote and that is a task they take very seriously. They verify the use of the money for the activities of those it was meant for. In regard to the operation of the secret service Vote, at this point, I have to ask the Deputy to bear with me as I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: This refers to staff who were working for the HSE. I am advised that efforts were made to reach agreement on this matter but they were not successful. I understand the matter will be subject to a Labour Court hearing on 17 February. Therefore, at the end of next week, there will be a Labour Court hearing that I am sure will play a role in bringing the matter to a conclusion.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I know it has gone on. It relates to a report from 2007 so it has been going on for 16 years now. I am not aware of which side was playing the stronger role here in terms of agreement not being reached but, clearly, there was a very significant disagreement if this issue has gone on for so long.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: We do not have the information available here but I will get the information and write to the committee.

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