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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: As the Senator knows, the Mental Health Commission is undertaking a review of CAMHS. The HSE is performing an independent review of CAMHS as well. I have convened a series of roundtable meetings-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I thank the Senator. At the start, I complimented this committee, which has done Trojan work and which has rightly put a focus on children and people with autism. I was delighted to attend an event in Waterford with Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. Waterford is trying to become the first autism-friendly city in Ireland. It is a three-year campaign. It was on a Sunday afternoon and there were...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I thank Deputy Joan Collins for that. Nobody will disagree with her in relation to recruitment and retention and the challenges there. Previous Governments may not have the funding, but there are 700 whole-time equivalent staff who are now funded for disability services. There are approximately 400 who are funded for mental services and who are currently going through the recruitment...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: We can hear the Deputy.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I thank Dr. Niazi for that. In the context of CAMHS, it is important, as Dr. Niazi noted, to state that we are looking at the model. We have 74 CAMHS teams that are not fully staffed. The question is whether we would be better off having fewer fully-staffed teams and a hub-and-spoke model in place. We are considering everything in this regard, and no decisions have been made. This is why...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: Obviously, I cannot comment on individual cases. If the Deputy wants to send on the details of that case, my two colleagues here will certainly look at it. Perhaps the broader picture is the issue whereby some young people are receiving supports up to age 18 and then age out. The Deputy referred to this young person as being 19. We are looking at that issue in respect of mental health....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: For everybody who is involuntarily detained in a mental health facility in our approved centres, of which we have 56 all over the country, the Mental Health Commission has a huge role to play. As Dr. Niazi said, each person is entitled to a tribunal with a solicitor and an advocate who is a consultant psychiatrist. The Mental Health Commission is in charge of these tribunals for every...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I can.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: With all due respect, I was trying to answer the question. The Deputy asked what plan we have. At the moment, we have an intervention to try to reduce long-waiters off the waiting list for primary care psychology. This is after there have been 48% more referrals in the space of two years. Any system is going to be under pressure. We also have a waiting list initiative running across six...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: We tried to discuss the issue at the roundtable series of discussions, which comprised NEPS, disability and CAMHS. Mr. Higgins is the assistant national director for change planning and delivery for disability and mental health services and, therefore, there is a real focus on the area and he will comment. Many families experience great frustration due to the silo nature of the supports...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: The Deputy made the point that there should be no wrong door and that has to be the approach because, regardless of whether it mental health, disability, autism or whatever, when a child is referred, it is done for a reason and where one door does not open, there has to be some door.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: Ensuring that there is a door was part of our roundtable discussion with the stakeholders. We spend €80 million each year on mental health services and work with various NGOs whether that is Jigsaw, MyMind, Turn2Me or the text line 50808. For some people, a referral to one of these organisations might be sufficient at that stage. The issue is to find the right door but there has to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: Under the social care model, the HSE will now employ, as a healthcare worker, a person who has completed two modules of a QQI 5 course and commits to study the remaining modules while working or earn and learn. I always say that we cannot compromise on standards.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: The Deputy has not asked us to do that but I will take away her point that it is very costly, and can cost as much as €1,500, for a person to secure further accreditation to ensure an appropriate placement. Having to pay €1,500 may mean that a person does not get an opportunity to offer his or her skills.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: There are discussions between the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, on higher education and trying to put more posts in train. As the Cathaoirleach said, it will take four years for some of them to come through the system. It takes even longer for other definitions. There are certainly many...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I thank Dr. Niazi.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I know that. I will ask some of my colleagues to answer some of the questions because some of them are of a clinical nature. Over the past 18 months child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, have been in a spotlight. As the committee will know, we have both a review and an audit under way looking at all 74 CAMHS teams the length and breadth of the country. Between 2021 and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I thank Senator Flynn. I do not accept there is discrimination against children with autism from any CAMHS team. We have to remember that we have 1 million children in Ireland under the age of 18 and only 2% of children will need the support of CAMHS. CAMHS is specifically for young children and adolescents who have a moderate to severe diagnosis of mental health challenges. Mental health...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: I will hand over to my colleague, Dr. Niazi, the HSE national clinical adviser and group lead for mental health. Before I do, though, I wish to revert to one point. It is the multidisciplinary team that will determine whether a child reaches the threshold to be accepted for CAMHS support. Some parents approach me to say that they believe their children should be in the care of CAMHS but...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism: Autism Policy: Discussion (Resumed) (23 May 2023)

Mary Butler: CAMHS is not suitable for children who need interventions due to learning difficulties, social issues, behavioural challenges or mild-to-moderate mental health problems. CAMHS is more for children with severe mental health difficulties. The Senator is right, in that they can also have diagnoses of autism. There are children accepted into CAMHS who have severe mental health difficulties as...

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