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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I want to move on to the issue of agency staffing and overtime. In your opening statement you said that the workforce has increased by 26,000 since 2020 but yet the number of agency staff continues to increase year on year. Why is this happening? You said it is a puzzle that we have to unravel.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Nobody will deny that 26,000 is a substantial increase in staff.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The point is that if there are 26,000 more staff and the demand for, and cost of, agency workers is increasing, this should not be a puzzle. There has to be a rational explanation for this. Can Mr. Gloster tell me what is happening in the HSE to cause this situation? I understand that there are greater demands in that we have an increasing and ageing population. However, that does not...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I accept that. We received a piece of correspondence a few months ago from the HSE - I do not have it to hand so I will go from memory - that gave a picture of staffing in CHO 8. What stood out for me was that there were 30 to 35 more management-administration staff than what was required, whereas right across what I would term the front-line services, there are shortfalls. The CDNTs,...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: According to that letter, there is an excessive number of them.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Like us, people in the HSE are accountable to the public. You have a seven-year term, as I understand it. Is it your intention to try to address that mismatch?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay, because that is what we need to hear.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The correspondence I have mentioned was dated 31 October and provided follow-up information on foot of a PAC meeting. The letter was not very explanatory, but those were the figures in it. Does Mr. Gloster feel the embargo on recruitment is adding to agency costs? Is it having the opposite effect to what is intended? The aim of the embargo is to reduce costs and control spending, but is...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I put the question to Mr. Watt. The Minister and the Government decide policy, but is the Minister aware that this could have unintended consequences?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Is he aware of the unintended consequences-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: -----one of which is that the embargo could drive up agency costs?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay. We will move to the second round of questions.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: No, what I am asking is if they will be on the list.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I want to revert to the Children's hospital and discuss cost overruns. What is the timeline for the projected opening of the hospital? Will someone please confirm the date for the committee? I think Mr. Tierney was answering.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: So the opening date is the middle of 2025.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: When the total drawdown is sanctioned for the hospital, which is likely to be €1.4 billion, will the HSE commit to notifying the committee at that stage of what the drawdown is? There have been delays on this project. The claims run into thousands at this stage. There have been legal challenges. Suffice it to say, the relationship between the board and the contractor has not been...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Sorry, I want to hear from Mr. Watt first.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: On the site and the location of it, have they presented particular challenges in logistics and costs? Are there lessons to be learned there?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: At the time this project was signed off, Mr. Watt was the Secretary General in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: At that time, had Mr. Watt concerns about the site and nature of the contract? I ask because there have been criticism and scrutiny, insofar as we can examine, of the type of contract that was used in this case. On the contract, the design and the hospital location, it is my view that those three issues have caused problems, delays and costs. In hindsight, does Mr. Watt agree that those...

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