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Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I am disappointed that you care so little for the reputations of members of the committee who have acted in good faith and who did not deserve to be so personally attacked by colleagues.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I have not finished my substantive points.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I was interrupted by the Chair, as you may recall.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: You may recall from your chairing that you intervened.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: The substantive point is that people such as Ms Liz McDermott and the organisation she represents have pointed out obvious things. For example, in a world where we are supposed to be defending, in terms of human rights, the rights of people with disabilities, it is inappropriate to have a separate category of abortion precisely for people with disabilities simply because they are severe.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: People with these conditions - I do not use the term foetal abnormalities of the kind you describe but use the term "life-limiting conditions" - qualify as a category of persons with disabilities. Second, there is the reality that in some cases a diagnosis can be faulty. There are people, such as Martin and Sinéad McBreen, who some of us would have liked the committee to have heard,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Not agreed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Does the Chairman not go through the process of calling those in favour to say "Tá" and so on?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I have to go to help with a quorum. I indicated my wish to speak in case there was a list. I though other people may have indicated.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I would like to think that anyone who wants to protect unborn children cares about life at all stages, including vulnerable life. I would like to think that my career demonstrates a consistent vision of seeking to protect human dignity and seeking a society that goes the extra mile in terms of dispersal of public funds and so on. This means reaching out and supporting people with disability...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: What this issue has in common with the previous one about abortion for children with significant foetal abnormalities is that the committee will not recommend them here today. However, we need to be careful about how it is presented. In reality, these things are, by definition, being recommended by the committee up to 12 weeks in the earlier motion passed, which is in effect abortion on...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: On a point of clarification, does motion 30 fall or is it negatived if reason 13 is accepted?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Rather than take motion 30, we are moving to the reason. Is that the proposal?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I propose that we take a short break after this vote and before we start discussing the ancillary recommendations, particularly given that there is a natural break between the two.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: All right.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is the question, "That the committee recommends that termination of pregnancy be lawful, with no restriction as to reason"?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Vótáil. Did the Chairman mean to say that the question is defeated?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Notwithstanding what has already been voted, it seems to me that if the committee votes for reason 13, I would interpret that as introducing ambiguity after the Fianna Fáil amendment that was taken earlier. If there is no distinction then I think people would be entitled to-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Can I finish making my point?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: People would be entitled to presume that the committee had introduced a new ambiguity in that area.

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