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Written Answers — Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade: Passport Services (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: 451. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade if a passport application (details supplied) will be expedited; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32500/22]

Written Answers — Department of Education and Skills: School Staff (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: 553. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if she will review the teacher allocation at a school (details supplied); and if she will make a statement on the matter. [32039/22]

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I welcome all of our witnesses to today's session, both in person and online. Apologies have been received from Deputies Pringle and Martin Kenny and Senator Ruane. We may be joined by other committee members over the course of the meeting. I remind everyone to turn off their mobile phones so that they do not interfere with the recording. We have a number of items on our agenda today,...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Detective Chief Superintendent Michael Gubbins. He has done something most people very seldom do. He came in under time, thank you. On behalf of the Department of Justice, I invite Ms Rachel Woods to make her opening remarks.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Woods. Next up is Mr. William Browder. While he might be online today, he has been physically present in the precincts before. I met him when he visited the Houses a couple of years ago. He gave a very useful address to a number of us in one of the side rooms. The committee is glad to have him with us today. He has three minutes for his opening remarks.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Browder. It is very interesting. There will be a number of questions for Mr. Browder from around the table as regards understanding how this works elsewhere. We have received submissions as to what difficulties and concerns exist from a legislative perspective so his input may be very useful in terms of how they have been overcome elsewhere. I look forward to that discussion....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: As we have a few items on the agenda in addition to this Bill, I will take that as the Deputy's opening remarks and will start the three minutes now for questions and answers.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: Yes. I will invite the other witnesses to come in. Is there any particular witness the Deputy would like to direct his question to at the outset?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: Senator Gallagher is keen to get in. Division bells are going off for the Seanad so there is a little urgency about getting him in, if that is okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: We will go to the Senator and come back for another round if needs be.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: We will go to each of the witnesses to get responses to those questions and points.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: Mr. Browder has his hand up. I will bring him in now to give us his views.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I thank Mr. Browder. I have several questions. The point made by the representatives of the Department was that the revenue from a human rights abuse might be derived from what is called a profit-generating crime as opposed to human rights abuse. I would like to understand and flesh that out a little. If people were engaged in human trafficking and then using those trafficked people in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: I will broaden out the contributions and invite the other witnesses to comment. The difficulty, as it has been put to us, is that there may be assets within the jurisdiction generated by what are called existing crimes, shall we say, or more common or garden crimes, as opposed to human rights crimes. Assets in those cases are already subject to the laws of the State and to seizure by CAB...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: Let us take it back to first principles. Let us say a human rights abuser is resident in another jurisdiction - it can be anywhere - and that human rights abuser is well chronicled and well documented and we would say that the burden of proof is met for the purpose of this consideration and that we have evidence that would arise in a prosecution, and that abuser has assets within the State...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: How does that differ from sanctions that might be passed at EU level, for example, where certain individuals are no longer permitted to hold, trade in or dispose of assets within the State because they are considered to be persona non gratabecause of international events? How does it differ from that situation?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: That is helpful. I am going to wrap up the discussion shortly because we have other issues to discuss. To elucidate that further, and I hope I do not complicate it further, if there is an individual who has clean money and dirty money, the clean money is accumulated through a legitimate business interest and the dirty money is accumulated through criminal activity or certain activity in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: That is because CAB, under current powers or even under the Bill, could not move on clean money.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020: Discussion (21 Jun 2022)

James Lawless: No, that would be against named individuals. I am talking about Ireland quaIreland acting against gross human rights abusers.

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