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Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I do not have it in front of me. I would appreciate the assistance of the secretariat on that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: This is the only recommendation, as far as I can see, governing the possibility of subtracting from the grounds for abortion that are currently legal under the law of the country. It is fair to say that there was substantial evidence before the health committee in 2013, including from suicide prevention experts who recommended against suicide as a grounds. There have been substantial and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Chairman, is it not the case that when the Chair puts the recommendation, that all in favour say, Tá; and all against say, Níl. That is a voice vote and it is only then, members say Vótáil. Is that how it works?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: No, not in the sense of calling for a vótáil.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: On a point of clarification, is this a vote on a serious risk to the health of a woman, without distinction as to physical or mental health?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I am sorry about this but I would like to get some clarification if I may. It may assist others because, as the Chairman will understand, a lot is happening.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is it the case that reason No. 6, which is on risk to the physical health, reason No. 7, which is on risk to the mental health, and reason No. 8 have been voted through?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I apologise for holding up proceedings.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I cannot understand how members who might have voted against the provision of abortion on grounds of health simpliciter- on the basis, presumably, that it imports too wide a set of grounds and invokes the undemonstrated and, in fact, contra-indicated use of mental health as a ground - could vote for or support abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, which is effectively what this is about.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I do not need to note that was not a point of order; it is simply an interruption of another speaker who did not interrupt the Senator.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Yes. I do not interrupt, actually.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I just want to put that on the record. I do not believe I have ever done it. To me, this is a very distressing proposal. Motion 18 does not state "in view of the difficulties with regulating the online purchase of abortion pills". The substance is "because it is difficult to legislate for termination of pregnancy for reasons of rape or incest". I get why many good people are conflicted...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Is there a restriction on the second intervention? Deputy O'Connell intervened for a second time earlier.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: If there is a certain amount of this is going on, one could have a public education campaign. One could do as I suggested earlier-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: -----and guarantee that a person could seek medical care. To legalise something bad because it is already occurring, however, is really to say we should not have any law in the land prohibiting anything.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: Two issues struck me from the evidence we heard from medical people and from the various families. It became increasingly obvious that what people were looking for was not just the permission for the termination of pregnancy where a child's condition could be said to be fatal such that they would not live long after birth. We also heard medical people saying there should not be a closed...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: It was open to you, a Chathaoirligh, to interrupt Deputy Louise O'Reilly when she said that earlier.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: From where I am sitting, it seems to be too predictable that when I would defend myself-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: With even more justification, I am sure you would understand. I want to it on the record. I had to drive to the North the night in question. I made it my business to speak to those guests outside and even passed them a note explaining why I could not stay on after they had made their presentations, which I listened to. It would not impede your neutrality, Chair, were you to make the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution: Completion of the Examination of the Report and Recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly and Preparation of a Draft Report in accordance with the Terms of Reference of the Joint Committee (13 Dec 2017)

Rónán Mullen: I would ask for a greater defence than that. I would ask you to rule, as the Chair, that such comments are not fair or appropriate anyway. That is the difference. Whether I was here or not is not the point.

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