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Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I wish the committee, the Minister, Deputy McEntee and her officials, our secretariat and anybody observing a good afternoon. I do not know if we received any apologies. Deputy Costello has indicated that he is juggling with another meeting and he may try to join us in between, as best he can. We have a couple of people attending virtually and we have a couple of people attending in...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I do not want to interrupt the Minister's flow, but we might open up to comments under each head. We will take discussion under each head and the Minister can open each head with her remarks. Would that work? It will then be fresh in members' minds when we are considering matters,if that would work for the Minister as well as the members. I thank the Minister for the overview of the...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I am going to proceed to the next questioner. If Deputy Carroll MacNeill wants to contribute at the end, she may do so. I am allowing about five minutes per questioner for the first subhead. There are a few subheads to get through.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Members may contribute for a second time if they have additional questions. I call Deputy Martin Kenny.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Deputy Costello is next. His microphone is on mute.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: The Deputy is welcome to come in to the committee room. I will move on to the next questioner and we will, perhaps, come back to Deputy Costello. Deputies Pa Daly and Pringle are also on the call. Would either of the Deputies like to come in at this time? No. We will move on to the next head. Before we leave the Garda Vote - I know it is not strictly relevant although there may be a...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: We will now take questions and comments on Vote 24 - Justice. I call Deputy Pa Daly to mix things up.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Deputy Costello has made it to the room.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: That is a separate Vote.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Yes, we are discussing justice and Vote 24.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I assumed the Inspector of Prisons would come under prisons, which is Vote 21, but perhaps I am incorrect.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: We learn something new every day.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Before we leave that sub-head, I have a question. Subhead A15 is Legal Aid (Criminal) and subhead A16 is Legal Aid - Custody Issues. The question also covers forensic science to some extent and subhead A23, commissions and special inquiries. In the Supplementary Estimates last year, we increased the amount available to the Department for legal aid. There was a significant fall,...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: On the legal aid point, is the Minister familiar with a campaign by legal practitioners who have made representations to members of this committee about unwinding the FEMPI cuts that were experienced a decade or more ago? It may be one of the few professions which has still not received that restoration. Does the Minister want to comment on that? Is she aware of those issues and the...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I thank the Minister. The committee has the wider issue of legal aid on its work programme as it is of interest to the committee. The Minister might keep us posted about that. It is good to hear that it is being considered.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: Moving on to the Courts Service Vote, I ask the Minister to lead us through it.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I call Deputy Costello, who is indicating.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I echo Deputy Costello's call, and I am glad that the Minister is acting on this issue. Our per capita number of judges is low compared with the rest of Europe and other countries that use common law. That is certainly a concern. It is a theme that has emerged in multiple hearings of this committee in the last 18 months. The lack of judges has arisen as an issue even in unexpected areas....

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: There are two items remaining, namely, Vote 41 and Vote 44. I propose to take them together because they are both important but relatively small in terms of subheads. There are only two items in each Vote so we might take them together. They refer to the Policing Authority and the Data Protection Commission. We will take questions on both.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2022
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 – Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 24 – Justice (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
(8 Feb 2022)

James Lawless: I have a question on the Data Protection Commission. The Minister will be aware that this committee produced a report on the commission. We had people like Mr. Schrems attending the committee. The Minister will also be aware of the ongoing debate and concerns as to the effectiveness and capacity of the Irish Data Protection Office to manage effectively all of Europe's data sets. By...

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