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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: If the committee might bear with me for a moment, I thought the Minister would speak for more than a minute.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I hear what the Minister is saying. We have heard it before. We are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. Prices will continue to go up. I am sure the Minister is aware that the Government in Germany, a coalition which involves the Greens, paused its carbon tax increase last year in the context of the cost-of-living crisis. Their carbon tax is set at €30 per tonne while our is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am not opposed to this section. It involves a significant increase, and a bigger one than we have seen in recent years. I am just conscious of something I see in the community all the time. I do not know what a packet of cigarettes costs now - about €17, I think, with this increase. We are talking about €170 for a carton of ten packets. The number of people who are coming...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I just want to make one final point. I thank the Minister for the data. It would not be nice to see the trend with regard to where that is moving and how it is correlating, if it is at all, with price in the Irish retail market. However, at the end of the day, I know most people are still buying these products from behind the counter in Irish shops and if one, in particular, is trying to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Can I have some clarification as to how this will apply to cider and perry with a high percentage, or a percentage above 8.5%? What does this do to the typical product on the shelf? It obviously increases the excise but what does this do to the price of a litre of cider?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: All right.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: This refers to the deposit return scheme and the VAT applicable to this and how VAT would be applied to the operator with respect to the non-refunded deposits or return deposits. Can the Minister talk us through it, or does he have the information with regard to the implementation of this scheme as to how it will operate in practice for retailers? Is that something the Minister has? I am...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I thank the Minister for that. Going through the practicalities of this, an operator is established, and an operator is different from a retailer who will operate the scheme. An operator will provide services at different retail outlets, I assume. Correct me if I have misunderstood this. Let us say €5 million in deposits was paid for aluminium cans or plastic drink containers and...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The retailer also benefits from a fee, do they not? No.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I am not totally familiar with this scheme, so apologies if I am not familiar with the existing legislation. I do not have the detail to hand. My understanding is a retail outlet will agree to operate this scheme.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The operator is the person above that, is it not?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The retailer gets a fee from the operator for operating this service. Is that not the case? I think it was 8% or something.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is from the operator.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: If we buy an aluminium can with the return logo on it, we are subject to the deposit, which may be 20 cent or whatever it is. It is immaterial to this issue. However, the retailer is not the operator.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: They obviously have to get something out of it. The profit of the operator is the number of cans that are not returned, I presume?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is where the profit originates. There will be a certain amount that will go into recycle bins or whatever. Let us use the €1 million we talked about earlier. It is subject to VAT. The €4 million that is returned in terms of the deposit is not subject to VAT. Out of the €1 million that the operator retains, a portion of that is given to the retailer for a fee to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Does this envisage that there is only one operator or multiple operators?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The legislation only provides for one operator.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Obviously, it could not work with multiple. It would be, for example, Repak or whatever.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (No. 2) Bill 2023: Committee Stage (Resumed) (8 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: This deals with the flat rate for farmers. As the Minister knows, the farming sector is quite upset about the flat-rate compensation or addition for non-VAT registered is being changed from the current 5% to 4.8%. They make a number of points about the impact this will have on farmers, particularly given that costs have increased on farms. I note the Minister said this is required under...

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