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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There is €9 billion in the discretionary fund and €6 billion in the banks, which means it is €15 billion in total. Is that what Mr. Ashmore is saying?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: On the rate of return, what have we been averaging in the last couple of years?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I know that it varies at different times. The NPRF was doing very well in that regard until the financial crash. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Would the 2.4% return be below or in line with the projections for the type of returns we would be looking at?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Yes and I understand that but I just want to know, on the basis of expectation and outturn, where is ISIF? When our guests were sitting down three years ago, what was their target in terms of the rate of return?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. That is a legislative provision and that is fair enough. I know that our guests want to comply with the legislative provision but as investors, they are hardly sitting around a board and if -----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----markets are saying there are great returns here, let us try to get 2%. Our guests have a target and I am just wondering where they are vis-à-visthat target.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Just on an issue that has been very topical here, ISIF continues to invest in companies that are on the UN Human Rights Council database of businesses and enterprises involved in certain activities related to illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine. We are all witnessing the horrors that are happening in Gaza at this point in time. It is hurtful to a lot of people. Tens of thousands have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The Oireachtas has passed Second Stage of Sinn Féin legislation. The Dáil has given in an initial view on it. It is not enacted in law yet but that it is a signal. To tell the truth, the public is just aghast at this. It should not take waiting for the legislation to be passed and a signature by the President for the NTMA and ISIF to say, "Let us not invest Irish taxpayers'...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Who sets the investment strategy for ISIF? Is it the Minister? Is it Government?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Is there anything to preclude ISIF from divesting from anything, whether nuclear weapons companies, environmentally-damaging companies or companies operating in illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine? Is there anything to stop ISIF's strategy dealing with that, or does it need a law to be passed?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: That is the point. The bombs are raining down on children, women and innocent civilians right across Palestine. It does not require a change in the law. We have put this forward. The Government has delayed this by nine months but it does not require a law to be changed for ISIF, in my view, to do the right thing. I do not understand it. A change in the law is not needed. ISIF's...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Gilvarry is speaking from a departmental point of view but it is not the Department that sets the ISIF strategy. ISIF itself can do this. Does Mr. Gilvarry accept that? I know the Department is dealing with the Attorney General on legislation and all the rest, and I am going to leave it at that. I have not gone into the meat and bones of this.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. I ask the Chair to give me a few minutes. The National Reserve Fund has €6 billion in it. How many years did we miss the legislative requirement to put money into that fund? There was a legal requirement to put money into the fund, and the Minister brought a resolution every year to say it would not be done this year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I understand that, and this legislation allows for it as well. I just want to know how many times it was done.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: On the investment strategy, it can be invested inside or outside the State. That is common to both funds. What is the NTMA's thinking with regard to the proportion of investment, if any, that would be State-wide? I know there are risks when one invests in the State. What is the thinking at this point in time?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I hear that. The point is well made. According to the general scheme, "The Agency shall publicly disclose the investment strategy determined from time to time". Do the witnesses have any sense of whether that will be on an annual basis?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Perfect. I wanted to clarify that in terms of the heads of Bill. The issue of 8% of GDP was dealt with. On the balance standing to the credit of the National Reserve Fund, €4 billion is going into the future Ireland fund and €2 billion is going into the ICNF in 2024. Is that being liquidated at the minute?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: In terms of the Minister doing what he did with the future Ireland fund, namely, bringing a resolution before the House to say that he, or perhaps she in the case of a future holder of the office, is not putting the money in, the general scheme refers to an evaluation to determine whether "a significant deterioration in the public finances has occurred each year or where that deterioration...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The serious deterioration could be looked at. Is it a serious deterioration based on the projections in respect of the public finances, which is one thing, or a serious deterioration in the public finances, which is another? We could be in a situation where we are in surplus but we actually do not want to put this money into the fund because legislatively it is locked away until 2040, and...

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