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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome all of our guests to the committee. We had a stark reminder in relation to the cost of ageing in a report prepared by the Department a number of years ago in the context of health and pension expenditure in particular. To go through this fund, I welcome the proposals that are under consideration here today. I will start with the existing funds. This is not new or novel. We...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Sorry, to Allied Irish Bank back in the day. Let us start with the National Pensions Reserve Fund. Obviously that fund does not exist any more. That was set up such that a percentage of GDP was to be injected each year. Is that right?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Sorry, GNP and the Government of the day was not allowed to draw down the capital until 2025. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: However, the bankers then came knocking at the door and the legislation was changed. To answer Deputy O'Callaghan's question, the concerns that have been raised there have been done before and there is nothing in the legislation to prevent that. It talks about reputational damage as such. In relation to the NPRF, what was supposed to be in it? What were the projections for 2025? Do the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It would have been around €45 billion with no contributions beyond that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Was there an estimation done on the basis of an assumption that the legal position was to prevail until 2025?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: It would be fair to say-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----that the €45 billion figure would possibly be doubled, if not more. Is that the case?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: We had a fund, set down in law, which should be at around €100 billion, and growing, at this point in time but unfortunately, we are not there. We have to learn lessons from that in the context of these funds. On the ISIF, what is value of the assets in that fund at the minute? What is it made up of?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: So there is €6 billion in banks and €3 billion in the discretionary portfolio. Is that it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: There is €9 billion in the discretionary fund and €6 billion in the banks, which means it is €15 billion in total. Is that what Mr. Ashmore is saying?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: On the rate of return, what have we been averaging in the last couple of years?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: I know that it varies at different times. The NPRF was doing very well in that regard until the financial crash. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Would the 2.4% return be below or in line with the projections for the type of returns we would be looking at?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Yes and I understand that but I just want to know, on the basis of expectation and outturn, where is ISIF? When our guests were sitting down three years ago, what was their target in terms of the rate of return?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. That is a legislative provision and that is fair enough. I know that our guests want to comply with the legislative provision but as investors, they are hardly sitting around a board and if -----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: -----markets are saying there are great returns here, let us try to get 2%. Our guests have a target and I am just wondering where they are vis-à-visthat target.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: Just on an issue that has been very topical here, ISIF continues to invest in companies that are on the UN Human Rights Council database of businesses and enterprises involved in certain activities related to illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine. We are all witnessing the horrors that are happening in Gaza at this point in time. It is hurtful to a lot of people. Tens of thousands have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: General Scheme of the Future Ireland Fund and Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund Bill 2023: Discussion (22 Nov 2023)

Pearse Doherty: The Oireachtas has passed Second Stage of Sinn Féin legislation. The Dáil has given in an initial view on it. It is not enacted in law yet but that it is a signal. To tell the truth, the public is just aghast at this. It should not take waiting for the legislation to be passed and a signature by the President for the NTMA and ISIF to say, "Let us not invest Irish taxpayers'...

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