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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The end of March-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The HSE should tell them that is nonsense. It costs the same to carry out an audit in March as it does in July. The cost does not go up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien is now talking about the compliance statement to be produced with the annual audited accounts. There are two processes involved and Mr. O'Brien is merging the two. One involves the internal audit report; then, as Mr. O'Brien said, there is the broader compliance issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: When will the HSE receive reports indicating this has been fully implemented?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Revised Estimates for 2014 were published yesterday and in due course the Oireachtas will vote to give the HSE €13 billion. In the first instance, the responsibility is on the Accounting Officer for the HSE - I am not sure whether it is Dr. McLoughlin or Mr. O'Brien - to ensure the money is spent in compliance with regulations. In the second instance, the onus is on section 38...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien is moving on. I am a little frustrated because he is moving on and saying the HSE wants the 2013 audited accounts to be completed by the end of the first quarter of 2014. We are in the week before Christmas and I suspect it is possible some of the organisations have not yet completed their audited reports for 2012. I do not get the purpose in having externally audited reports....

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but Mr. O'Brien told me 32 had not been verified and that they would be met in the new year. It is slipping.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: It is a very tight timescale.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien has just told us about the circular issued on 27 September which talked about one person-one salary. The Taoiseach reiterated it verbatim in the House that people could not receive top-ups on their salaries. If one has a contract with a section 38 institution, one is a public servant. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Taoiseach has stated in the Dáil - he quoted the circular - that there cannot be top-up payments. There is no ambiguity about this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Could we ask representatives of the HSE to come on the first Thursday in February with an absolute assurance that it will have verified that all 44 organisations are compliant? Do Mr. O'Brien understand from where we are coming? That will be ten months from the date of the internal audit report. How long will it take to verify this specific aspect of the internal audit report? Is it too...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: When will that be?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: The meetings in January of the boards will be about compliance, which is the broader issue, as Mr. O'Brien said. However, I am trying to narrow it down to the specifics of the internal audit report. I am afraid - the public is rightly afraid - that we will eventually walk away and will be here in February talking about broad compliance statements. In the meantime we will not have verified...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: They will have had from last March to the end of next January to put forward a business case to justify a top-up payment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: They will have had October, November, December and January - four months - in which to make a business case for the top-up payments. How many months will it take the HSE to verify and adjudicate on the matter? Who will determine who is right? The bodies will have their view and the HSE will have its view. Who will make the call?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. I have a few specific questions. In March 2013, nine months ago, the internal audit report was produced, which dealt with the 44 organisations. I am aware that the witnesses have various letters in respect of compliance, warning letters, suggestions and meetings which have taken place in the meantime but, from the HSE perspective,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: Of the 44 organisations identified nine months ago, how many has the HSE verified as being compliant? I am not talking about letters from the organisations stating that they believe they are compliant. It is a great audit report, as I said the last day. When we get a good report the issue is how well it is followed through. This is nine months afterwards. Of the 44 organisations, how...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: So Mr. O'Brien is saying after nine months that in a report into 44 organisations the HSE can verify that eight are compliant. At the rate of one per month, do we have to wait 32 months to get to the end of the 44 organisations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Seán Fleming: That has been the progress to date.

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