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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Yes, I would have thought it was more expensive.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I might come back to the witnesses on that. It just jumped out at me.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I presume the local authorities are still under quite a strict regime in relation to seeking authority to spend if they are borrowing. Does that still limit their ability to spend the development contributions?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: They have to make it up. I want to ask about the IBRC. In the tenth progress report, relating to 2021 and 2022, Russia and the Czech Republic are included together. Why is that the case? I think we can all appreciate that Russia would be in a different category. There is 57% of the portfolio of assets in Russia and the Czech Republic. Do we know what the figure is for the Czech...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Presumably, it would be easier to deal with the assets in the Czech Republic, where there is one less issue, let us say, like a war.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: I know we are coming to the end of the investigation and we can see the end in sight, and that it was delayed by the pandemic. According to page 15 of the report, there is something like nine recovery and enforcement actions and some of these cases were instigated prior to the appointment of the special liquidators. What is the earliest date for some of these cases?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: They date back to 2013.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: We have been told that some of the cases date back to 2013. How many? Do we know that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Perhaps the Department can come back to us with that.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: The representatives of the Department are the only people we can ask about the assets because of the nature of this special liquidation and the fact that the oversight is with the Department of Finance. I understand that the assets in the USA are residential and office assets. I note that 8% of the assets are in Ireland and 12% are in Asia. As I said, Russia and Ukraine are in a different...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: The reason I am asking is that a two-year extension has been granted from December 2022 to December 2024, so there must be a projection of resolution. There are cases in the courts that date back prior to 2013, in some cases. As would be expected, the assets that are more difficult to dispose of are left at the end. How is the date of 2024 being factored into it by the bank? There must be...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: What kind of plan is in place? Is it something that will be taken over by the Department to resolve the outstanding issues?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Is 2024 the conclusion date or target date?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: The special liquidator changed in April this year.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Were there issues around that? Was it a smooth transition? Obviously, when you come in, you have to apprise yourself and all the rest of it.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Mr. Carville is saying there were no issues.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: Is there a projected cost to December 2024 for the special liquidator?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: When there was a change over from one special liquidator to another, was there a change in fees?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: On PPPs, I understand that six are at development stage. There are future PPP commitments totalling over €6.3 billion. Is that amount on the State's side? Obviously, there is private investment.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Finance Accounts 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 1 – Exchequer Financial Outturn for 2022
Chapter 2 – Reporting Ireland’s EU Transactions
Chapter 24 – Performance of the Ireland Apple Escrow Fund
Chapter 25 – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council
(30 Nov 2023)

Catherine Murphy: We did some work on value for money in PPPs. Perhaps we have to return to the issue. Presumably, only the commitments from the State’s side are counted. Obviously, there is an investment on the other side. I will contribute again later.

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