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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Were those periodic order payments approved in court?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am now back again to try to find some information about cases-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Is the legislation in train?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Maybe I am slow and everyone else is slow but I am here for half an hour and I am now hearing it. Mr. Breen must understand that we are not legal people. I am not a barrister or a solicitor nor are a majority of the public. I am pleased to hear that 100% of cases involving people aged under 18 go to court.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Let us move on. Will Mr. Breen separate the figures for us? He gave us a figure of 3%. How many cases went to court or were resolved in the years under review, either in 2012 or 2013? How many cases were settled outside court? What was the average cost of the awards in court versus those negotiated without going to court? What are the average legal costs for going to court versus not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am looking for numbers not percentages.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am looking for details for in court and outside of court.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: That amounts to approximately 12.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What was the average award of the 12 cases which went to court versus the average settlement reached in cases that did not go to court? I am trying to establish whether there is a significant difference. Is it costing the agency more to go to court? I will come to the legal costs in a moment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am referring to the award.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What was the average award last year from the 12 cases? Will Mr. Breen provide the total award, and we will divide it by 12?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am asking Mr. Breen to get those figures to help those of us in the Committee of Public Accounts. I am keen to see the average awards. We have heard of a case of €8 million and another of €4.5 million. I imagine there are smaller cases as well. In terms of the cases-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What are the largest awards of the cases that have not gone to court?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I note that the agency made payments last year of €147,000 for an average case. That includes approximately €60,000 of costs and €87,000 of the award itself. This means for every €1,000 of an award there is €670 in legal costs on top. We are finding that 40% of all the agency's payments are for legal costs. What are the highest sums the agency paid to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I have asked the question before. How much would it cost to take barristers on contract? Mr. Breen has referred to a reduced rate but the agency is paying a daily rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Is there no mechanism within the State apparatus - I am directing this to the entire deputation at this stage - whereby instead of paying barristers up to €2,000 per day, which could amount to hundreds of thousands of euro per annum, the agency could get some of them on an annual contract? That way they could develop considerable expertise at a rate dramatically less than the current rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: People tender for everything now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: It is still costing the State far more than it should. I am speaking as an ordinary person. It is still the case that hundreds of thousands of euro are going on these cases.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Breen is in place to help the State reduce the costs.

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